Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Late Roman Army Grade/Rank List under Anastasius
(06-30-2017, 07:08 AM)Steven James Wrote: A legion cannot be synonymous with a numerus... The Romans are pragmatic and have since the beginning of the Republic adhered to a very formularize military organisational system.

I refer you (again) to Sozomen Ecclesiastical History I.8: "From that period [i.e of Constantine] the Roman Legions, which now were called numeri..."

Also (again) to the Notitia Dignitatum, which lists legions (and all other units) under the heading numeri.

Also (again) to CIL 03, 10232, which refers to the palatine legion of the Ioviani as the numero Iovianorum.

Not to mention the very document under discussion, which refers to a unit commanded by a tribunis numeri as a legion.

The 'military organisational system' at work 'since the beginning of the Republic' is your own theory, and if the evidence does not support it then the theory should be revised, not the evidence.



(06-30-2017, 07:08 AM)Steven James Wrote: The names (Slab C) are such unlegionary names, it cannot be a legion with cavalry.

They appear to be very 'legionary names'. Ordinarii, signiferi, optiones, and so on. And the 'new' titles on the list are mentioned by Vegetius in his description of the 'ancient legion' (although these grades are more properly those of his own day).

The only not grade recorded elsewhere as part of the legion is 'veredarii' - but Vegetius, of course, has large numbers of cavalry integral to his legion, the old legion had its equites legionis, and tetrarchic legions in Egypt had large detachments of Promoti still on the strength, it seems. So nothing unusual about a legion with cavalry.

Whatever happened to "I let the primary sources guide me, always have and always will"? [Image: wink.png]



(06-30-2017, 07:08 AM)Steven James Wrote: I have found that Roman military mathematics should be continuously divided by 2 to arrive at the smallest subdivisions of the unit... The 225 Veradarii cannot do this, and it tells me that... its proper strength has not been recorded.

The proper strength has almost certainly been recorded. If you do not believe this to be the case, look again at the original inscription. Professor Onur has provided good quality photographs of it in his paper. Learn Greek (or just Greek numbers) and produce your own alternative translation or reading.

If you cannot do this, you must accept what's there, rather than disbelieving it because it doesn't say what you think it should say.

225 is an odd number - but we should almost certainly add the two bucinators and quite possibly the three mensores (as I suggested above). The result is still baffling, but we need to work with what we have.



(06-30-2017, 07:08 AM)Steven James Wrote: The 256 Brachiati semissales are divisible by 4, 8 and 16, but not the 136 Torquati semissales. My estimate of the size of a legion is 1,600 men which is divisible by 4, 8 and 16.

Add them all together - and the 40 armaturae as well - and you will find that the collective number divides by 4, 8 and 16.

The legion could be around 1600, but it cannot be exactly this number. The closest would be 1572 or 1672. We are working with exact figures here, not rough estimates.

With 159 munifices, the ten infantry ordines would total 960 men - a figure which divides into 4, 8 and 16, like the senior soldier grades, which in turn might support the idea that 1272 is the correct number for the legion. The next increment which would allow this is 559 munifices, giving a legion total of 1672 (1360 infantry soldiers), which again looks very feasible.



(06-30-2017, 07:08 AM)Steven James Wrote: I put the emotion thingy at the end to show it was a joke

Aha - emotion thingies are often not as expressive as we might like!
Nathan Ross
Reply


Messages In This Thread
RE: Late Roman Army Grade/Rank List under Anastasius - by Nathan Ross - 06-30-2017, 11:35 AM

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Late Roman Army during the 5th century Robert Vermaat 89 17,304 01-11-2024, 04:34 PM
Last Post: Magister_Officiorum13241
  Late Roman Army Ranks - Numeri/Limitanei jmsilvacross 14 1,740 11-17-2021, 01:42 PM
Last Post: Steven James
  Roman camps UK - is there a database or list? Steve Kaye 55 10,967 01-28-2021, 07:22 PM
Last Post: Alan316

Forum Jump: