Hoplites of the Archaic Age

[Chris B]

Great use of technology/YouTube to demonstrate your point, Chris....well done and a 'laus' !!

However, I can't recall seeing an ancient depiction that shows the shield in use with that upward position, which kind of militates against your hypothesis..... which btw would also seem practical for a conventional Aspis.....except, again, not shown in ancient deoictions AFIK....

In fact, on the vase illustrations, we see many different ways of holding and grips for the 'Boeotian', which implies to me that the artists were drawing something they did not know, and were using their imaginations.....

Actually, it doesn't negate anything (and yes I know there is a double negative). I offer it as a visual of a shield that not many people have. Actually, not showing it that way on vases doesn't mean much. I am not claiming one argument or another, only that you CANNOT hold it with that grip to the forward of the body without rotating it.

You cannot prove a negative anyways. It doesn't mean it wasn't used that way because it wasn't depicted in art that way. There is one BIG difference between it and the aspis. You don't have to take an upward position with an aspis because there isn't a huge hole in your front. If you held a boeotian in front just like the aspis, I think it would be pretty retarted from any vantage. You have two big holes at your vitals; neck and groin. I also have an aspis and don't see any tactical necessity to change positions like that with it. I can hold the aspis to the side and front without changing arm position.

Evidence,
First of all, when it is held that way, it is drawn close into the body. You can't draw behind it if your body is blocking the view.

Second, the shield is symetrical so a front view makes it impossible to know how they were holding it.

Third, many vases show this set up of grip. How the shield moves around the body is a fact. It is what it is. If you use that grip, there is only one way to hold it in front of you. I am not claiming any preferred stance so to speak, only the positions the shield takes at various angles around the body.

Fourth. I personally agree with Stefanos that if it was used, it probably would have been used in skirmish warfare with a more bladed stance that is more fitted to one on one combat. Most martial arts anywhere in the world take a more side oriented stance when fighting (Most, not all). I seriously, seriously doubt a skirmisher fighting alone would be much different. You present less of a target that way.

Last but not least, I offer it as a visual only whether it existed or not. I am not arguing about existence, use on the battle field, or anything other than the positions with that specific grip. I am seriously not meaning to be rude, but I personally couldn't care less until I see solid evidence one way or another. I really don't place much weight in speculation anyways which would be any of our views outside artistic reference. All my knowledge is based on references you all gave me.

Like I said, feel free to debate it amongst yourselves all you want. I am just fulfilling a promise to a few people for the reference.

Gioi - What is up with the Bruce Lee globes? Apparently you went over my head on that one. No idea what you meant. Well I am back to working on my left greave. I actually think I pulled it off. Now I hope I can do the right. Actually, I think the Greeks only used ONE greave, the left. Yes, Yes, that makes absolute sense to me so it must be so. Now I don't have to make a right one. :roll:

Added: I really do hope this doesn't come off sarcastic or angry or rude. I am taking short breaks while working on my greaves. They are the ONLY thing I am focussed on right now. If my kids came with a missing limb, I would tell them to get the needle and thread out of the sewing kit and fix it when I am engaged in one of "daddy's" projects. :wink: