Need some information about Mantinea 207 BCE

[Paullus Scipio]

Duncan wrote:-

That was Marsden's mistake, Paul. Polyaenus just says "stone-throwers". Other authors writing in Greek (e.g. Appian) use the word to mean "men chucking rocks".
And why doesn't stone-throwing by hand make sense? It has a long and honourable pedigree, in the literature and sculptural evidence. If Philip's phalanx was repulsed using this humble method, all the more reason to record it!

Actually, I don't think Marsden was mistaken at all, since he directly quotes the greek, as I posted. I suspect your translation derives loosely from one of the french translations, who for "stones and stone throwing machines" have "pierres et tirreurs" ( lit: stones and shooters/launchers) - Shepherds english translation 1793 is rather difficult to get hold of !
The context also clearly implies machines;
"Polyaenus (2. 38. 2) writes: "Onomarchus, drawing up his
men in battle order against the Macedonians, occupied a crescent shaped
mountain in his rear. After he had concealed stones
and stone-throwing catapults in the ridges on both sides, he
led his forces into the underlying plain. When the Macedonians,
coming against them, hurled their javelins , the Phocians pretended to flee into the midst of the mountain.
The Macedonians in spirited and quick pursuit pressed against
them, but the Phocians by discharging stones from the ridges
shattered the Macedonian phalanx. ( Hand thrown stones are not going to travel from ridges to plain!...and hand thrown stones are hardly likely to outrange javelins either)Then Onomarchus signaled
the Phocians to turn around and close with the enemy. The
Macedonians, with their adversaries attacking them from the
rear and throwing stones at them from above, were put to
flight and retreated with much suffering."

It stands to reason that it took a couple of generations for people to make the mental leap and realise that bigger machines, designed along the same lines, could shoot stones, too.

Biton refers to Zopyrus' machines ( see Paul B.'s post above) and Zopyrus floreat around the 350's, or if Paul is right, even earlier.Charon and Isidorus both describe non-torsion stone-throwers throwing balls up to 40lbs. We don't know for certain that Philip didn't have stone-throwers, merely that Alexander introduced Torsion stone-throwers at Halicarnassus, and as I said there is no reason the Phocians couldn't have them.....must go, so in haste....