10-23-2006, 03:04 PM
>Well, I think one has to keep in mind that the rest of the army may not have actually >dissolved. I always envisioned the Triarii as forming a point behind which the other ranks >would reform.
True but Livy is clear in his battle and triplex acies descriptions, the triarii is a last attack force not a cover line. On Veseri and Vadimone descriptions on view than after the triarii we don't have a new change with hastati e principes.
>hmm my opinion always was that the maniples of the hastati and first 2
>..............
>lines and >they still have enough depht to form a strong defensive line if >needed
8 ranks with 120 men maniple isn't possibile (centuries with a front of 7,5 men?), only with 144 maniples 8 ranks is plausibile (contuberni from 6 to 8 men) but in this case the triarii must have 3 ranks. With 10 ranks and a century behind the other, the space's count is correct but with this measures the space occupied by a consular army is only of 800-900 meters at maximum with the cavalry, 500 +- with only the infantry. Very little if on view a hellenistic army with the same number of men.
We can make a little hypotesis on the Polybius's fictional fight between legion and phalanx and the occupied space by a legionary for the greek author.
if we assume:
1 - The phalanx and the legion of Polybius in this fictional battle have the same frontal space
2 - Polybius know that the manipular line have gaps and the mechanisms of the gaps
Polybius can have made this consideration: each man in the phalanx continue line have 3 foots space, in the no-continue legion line we have half of men in first rank, so each man have the double of space of phalanx soldier (6 foots).
From this we have two possibilities:
1- The Polybius legionary's space count are only theoretical, in reality the gaps isn't closed, the presence of principes a little distance blocked the "viae".
2- This is a real observation: the legionaries pass from 3 foots to 6, before the contact with the enemy (move with 3, combat with 6; rational or natural movement?). The gaps are closed from this change of space.
But for triarii cannot been valid the same rule.
True but Livy is clear in his battle and triplex acies descriptions, the triarii is a last attack force not a cover line. On Veseri and Vadimone descriptions on view than after the triarii we don't have a new change with hastati e principes.
>hmm my opinion always was that the maniples of the hastati and first 2
>..............
>lines and >they still have enough depht to form a strong defensive line if >needed
8 ranks with 120 men maniple isn't possibile (centuries with a front of 7,5 men?), only with 144 maniples 8 ranks is plausibile (contuberni from 6 to 8 men) but in this case the triarii must have 3 ranks. With 10 ranks and a century behind the other, the space's count is correct but with this measures the space occupied by a consular army is only of 800-900 meters at maximum with the cavalry, 500 +- with only the infantry. Very little if on view a hellenistic army with the same number of men.
We can make a little hypotesis on the Polybius's fictional fight between legion and phalanx and the occupied space by a legionary for the greek author.
if we assume:
1 - The phalanx and the legion of Polybius in this fictional battle have the same frontal space
2 - Polybius know that the manipular line have gaps and the mechanisms of the gaps
Polybius can have made this consideration: each man in the phalanx continue line have 3 foots space, in the no-continue legion line we have half of men in first rank, so each man have the double of space of phalanx soldier (6 foots).
From this we have two possibilities:
1- The Polybius legionary's space count are only theoretical, in reality the gaps isn't closed, the presence of principes a little distance blocked the "viae".
2- This is a real observation: the legionaries pass from 3 foots to 6, before the contact with the enemy (move with 3, combat with 6; rational or natural movement?). The gaps are closed from this change of space.
But for triarii cannot been valid the same rule.
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia
a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo
SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo
SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
