07-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Really?
How exactly do you explain, then, the fact Macedonians spoke the Doric dialect of the Greek language, just like Spartans? Or the fact that both Macedonians and Macedonian regions had Greek names. That Macedonians participated on the ancient Olympics, which, as any first-year classicist knows, were only held among Greeks. The fact Macedonians worshipped the Greek pantheon and followed the Greek customs, and most importantly, the fact Macedonians themselves, as well as the rest of the Greeks (and Persians, and Romans, and Hebrew), considered Macedonia to be part of the Greek civilisation.
On the language of the Macedonians the Roman writer Titus Livius says (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)
quote:
The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day.
Want more?
How about what ancient historians had to say about the ethnicity of Macedonians?
Herodotus confirms their Greek origins on numerous passages, one of which I will quote herein.
quote:
Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia.
And it was certainly not Philip alone, as you purport, among Macedonians that considered himself a Greek. They all did. His father, Alexander the first, had this to say on the origins of Macedonians, as recorded in Herodotus's history (Book 9, paragraph 45.2)
quote:
... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ...
Arrian, another ancient historian, records Alexander the Great as having spoken thusly to the king of Persians (Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
quote:
Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...]
With regards to Alexander the Great, Arrian also describes the following incident.. After winning an important battle in Asia..
quote:
He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia (Alexander the Great" 1,16,7)
If Macedonians were of different ethnicity, why on earth wouldn't he make separate mention of them? He only spoke of Greeks, except Lacedaemonians!
More ancient sources, this time about Philip II.. (Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
quote:
Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen.
Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:
quote:
And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended
What did the rest of the ancient Greeks think? They considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:
Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):
"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):
"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).
"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."
Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!
Last but not least, the perspective of contemporary scholars on the ethnicity of Macedonians..
From "A History of Macedonia"
by Malcom Errington (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany)
University of California Press, 1993
Page 3
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."
From "The tutorial history of Greece, to 323 B.C. : from the earliest times to the death of Demosthenes"
by W. J. Woodhouse (Universiy of Sydney, Australia)
University Tutorial Press, 1904, (reprinted 1944)
Page 216
" This was Macedonia in the strict sense, the land where settled immigrands of Greek stock later to be called Macedonians"
From "The Western Experience"
by Mortimer Chambers (University of California),
Raymond Grew (University of Michigan),
David Herlihy (Harvard University),
Theodore Rabb (Princeton University)
and Isser Woloch (Columbia University)
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997
Page 79
"THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA:
Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".
And many more. Get thee to a library, and research on your own. I'm sure there are English translations of all the historiography I mentioned. The notion that Macedonians were not Greeks is not considered serious anywhere amongst history scholars today. Caesar might want to have a say in this, too, as I understand he studies the ancient cultures of the Mediterranean..
Macedonians were "not Greek", yet they only knew how to speak and write in the Greek language, and nothing else but the Greek language? Where on earth are their "non-Greek Macedonian" enscriptions and tombs? Why is every piece of written language recovered everywhere in ancient Macedonia Greek?
How exactly do you explain, then, the fact Macedonians spoke the Doric dialect of the Greek language, just like Spartans? Or the fact that both Macedonians and Macedonian regions had Greek names. That Macedonians participated on the ancient Olympics, which, as any first-year classicist knows, were only held among Greeks. The fact Macedonians worshipped the Greek pantheon and followed the Greek customs, and most importantly, the fact Macedonians themselves, as well as the rest of the Greeks (and Persians, and Romans, and Hebrew), considered Macedonia to be part of the Greek civilisation.
On the language of the Macedonians the Roman writer Titus Livius says (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)
quote:
The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day.
Want more?
How about what ancient historians had to say about the ethnicity of Macedonians?
Herodotus confirms their Greek origins on numerous passages, one of which I will quote herein.
quote:
Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia.
And it was certainly not Philip alone, as you purport, among Macedonians that considered himself a Greek. They all did. His father, Alexander the first, had this to say on the origins of Macedonians, as recorded in Herodotus's history (Book 9, paragraph 45.2)
quote:
... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ...
Arrian, another ancient historian, records Alexander the Great as having spoken thusly to the king of Persians (Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
quote:
Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...]
With regards to Alexander the Great, Arrian also describes the following incident.. After winning an important battle in Asia..
quote:
He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia (Alexander the Great" 1,16,7)
If Macedonians were of different ethnicity, why on earth wouldn't he make separate mention of them? He only spoke of Greeks, except Lacedaemonians!
More ancient sources, this time about Philip II.. (Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
quote:
Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen.
Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:
quote:
And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended
What did the rest of the ancient Greeks think? They considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:
Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):
"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):
"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).
"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."
Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!
Last but not least, the perspective of contemporary scholars on the ethnicity of Macedonians..
From "A History of Macedonia"
by Malcom Errington (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany)
University of California Press, 1993
Page 3
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."
From "The tutorial history of Greece, to 323 B.C. : from the earliest times to the death of Demosthenes"
by W. J. Woodhouse (Universiy of Sydney, Australia)
University Tutorial Press, 1904, (reprinted 1944)
Page 216
" This was Macedonia in the strict sense, the land where settled immigrands of Greek stock later to be called Macedonians"
From "The Western Experience"
by Mortimer Chambers (University of California),
Raymond Grew (University of Michigan),
David Herlihy (Harvard University),
Theodore Rabb (Princeton University)
and Isser Woloch (Columbia University)
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997
Page 79
"THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA:
Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".
And many more. Get thee to a library, and research on your own. I'm sure there are English translations of all the historiography I mentioned. The notion that Macedonians were not Greeks is not considered serious anywhere amongst history scholars today. Caesar might want to have a say in this, too, as I understand he studies the ancient cultures of the Mediterranean..
Macedonians were "not Greek", yet they only knew how to speak and write in the Greek language, and nothing else but the Greek language? Where on earth are their "non-Greek Macedonian" enscriptions and tombs? Why is every piece of written language recovered everywhere in ancient Macedonia Greek?
know thyself - socrates
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alejandro de flores
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alejandro de flores
