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Theban Army, Battle of Luectra
#15
Quote: Ancient Hellenes worn "outfits", with TOTALY PERSONAL preference.
Like MANY historic wrote, if you could "flash-back" through time and join a Phalanx, after the first few minutes of the battle start, you WOULDN'T be able to understand WHO is the enemy and WHO is your "brother-in-arms"!!!
Indeed!...

I would not necessarily disagree with respect to either the 6th century or even much or most of the 5th, but to make that argument for 4th and 3rd centuries BC, you have to ignore a fair amount of evidence.

For example:

Xen. Hell. 7.5.20: Epaminondas has his cavalry whiten (paint?) their helmets a uniform color. His allies adopt the club symbol on their shields – to match the indicated uniform use of the club by the Boeotians. It seems the Boeotiarchs at least did have authority to dictate symbols for their troops.

Xen. Hell 4.4.10: The hoplites of Sicyon are indicated as using a sigma blazon on their shields.

Xen Anab.1.2.16: Cyrus’ Greek mercenaries also wear something of a standard uniform.

It also seems to me it is worth considering two additional points to what extent the example of Athens and pottery depictions overstate diversity of uniform. Athens as a democracy rather limited the power of officers in the field and state imposed rather fewer controls on individuals than most Greek states (I believe it was Xenophon or maybe Plato who noted the Athenian hoplites were relatively undisciplined, and compared poorly with the navy which demonstrated a high degree of structure and discipline). I also wonder about pottery evidence; to what extent does pottery represent artist preference vs. reality? In particular say attic pottery, where the painter likely did not come from the hoplite class, and arms and amour were rarely carried in public.

Quote: Only the Spartans had that... "fine idea" (of course, I'm kidding, I ADORE them!) of "expose themselves", by wearing ALIKE outfits, cloaks, colors, etc.
Of course... they were NOT IDIOTS! They KNEW PERFECTLY, the... "fear factror"!
ALL knew that Spartans were the most SUPERB infantry in these Times!... So, imagine an army, marching in a field and... suddenly facing a full-bronze-covered line of Hoplites... dressed in RED!
Next step? FLEE AWAY!!!

The last bit depends a bit on the hoplites facing the lambdas, the Thebans and the Athenians may have lost to the Spartans from time to time but almost never ran without a fight.

Since the late 5th century and 4th century appearance of Epilektoi (at Argos, Thebes, Athens etc) almost certainly represents a recognition by other Greek states of the benefits Sparta gained by having a truly professional hoplite phalanx – I would suggest they would also have noted the benefits of a standard uniform. After all, would not the Thebans have wanted the average aspis holder across the field to know they were facing the Sacred Band – the men who beat the best of the Spartans - twice.
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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Messages In This Thread
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-09-2006, 07:12 PM
rer - by Johnny Shumate - 07-09-2006, 08:46 PM
Re: rer - by lupus - 07-09-2006, 09:54 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-09-2006, 11:09 PM
rer - by Johnny Shumate - 07-10-2006, 12:08 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-10-2006, 02:21 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-10-2006, 10:13 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-10-2006, 06:41 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-10-2006, 07:17 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-10-2006, 08:12 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-11-2006, 04:04 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-11-2006, 07:19 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-12-2006, 08:32 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-13-2006, 12:05 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-13-2006, 12:41 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-13-2006, 01:08 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-13-2006, 01:17 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-13-2006, 01:49 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-13-2006, 02:12 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-13-2006, 02:14 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-13-2006, 02:19 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-13-2006, 02:29 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-13-2006, 02:33 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-13-2006, 02:44 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-13-2006, 04:51 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-13-2006, 05:58 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by Anonymous - 07-14-2006, 09:14 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-14-2006, 09:18 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-14-2006, 09:28 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-14-2006, 10:11 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-14-2006, 10:39 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-17-2006, 09:19 AM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-17-2006, 09:57 AM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 07-17-2006, 12:01 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-17-2006, 12:22 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-17-2006, 12:23 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-17-2006, 01:00 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-18-2006, 01:29 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-18-2006, 01:36 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by lupus - 07-18-2006, 01:56 PM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 07-18-2006, 04:20 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-18-2006, 04:44 PM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 07-18-2006, 05:06 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by spyros - 07-18-2006, 05:13 PM
Re: Theban Army, Battle of Luectra - by conon394 - 07-22-2006, 07:01 PM

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