05-01-2021, 08:10 AM
Justin wrote:
Sorry, I meant nothing personal by it, just that I've not seen something like that proposed before. I should have put it more circumspectly.
My main claim was, putting it in English, Zama was bollocks.
Justine wrote:
If his version had been laughed at it would never have survived to reach Polybius.
As I explained, we have no evidence of how Cincius Alimentus was perceived by the Romans, nor when his work became mainstream with the Romans.
Justin wrote:
I'll concede that it might just be possible (unlikely, but possible) to switch a battle in the Third Samnite War which took place a century earlier, but there is no way he could have invented the decisive battle of the Second Punic War and got away with it. He wouldn't even have attempted such a colossal fraud knowing it had no chance of being believed. Seriously, no chance. Neither, for the same reason, IMHO, could he have moved any other battles in that war.
Well I can, and I do provide a lot of evidence of Roman defeats like the Trebbia, having the actions reversed and then appearing as another battle in Spain, in which the Romans win. I have found Cincius Alimentus not to be very imaginative, but I do thank him for basing his fabrications on some historical events. By actions reversed, what historically happened to the Romans will happen to the Carthaginians in their defeat. Mago’s ambush at the Trebbia has been lifted from the Trasimene. The Rhone engagement belongs to the Ticinus, and the Ticinus belongs to the Trebbia. The numbers given for the Roman and Carthaginian losses at the Rhone are the exact number of troops allocated to a consul when on reconnaissance. However, I believe you are not aware of what a Roman reconnaissance force consists of when accompanied by a consul. That is the difference between us. I’ve broken into new ground.
Justin wrote:
Why would Polybius be recommended a writer who was such an evident fraud? And for such major events as Zama, everyone at that time would have known what did or didn't happen. There may not have been an internet, but news travelled.
Why did Polybius use exaggerated numbers for the battle of Utica in 203 BC? Excerpt taken from my paper: Polybius and the Carthaginian army at Utica
When discussing Publius Scipio’s defeat of the Carthaginian commanders, Hasdrubal and Syphax, at the battle of Utica, Polybius writes: “it is not possible to find any other disaster which even if exaggerated could be compared with this, so much did it exceed in horror all previous events.”
Here Polybius is greatly mistaken as the Carthaginian army numbers as provided by Appian, Livy and Polybius himself prove they are nothing but exaggerations. For the battle of Utica, Polybius gives the size of the Carthaginian army as numbering 93,000 men, with Syphax commanding 60,000 men (50,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry), and Hasdrubal 33,000 men (30,000infantry and 3,000 cavalry). Appian provides the smaller figure for the Carthaginian army of about 20,000 men and 7,000 cavalry.
The difference between Hasdrubal’s army and Syphax’s army as given by Polybius produces a difference of 27,000 men (20,000 infantry and 7,000cavalry) as per Appian. So how did Polybius or his source arrive at Syphax having an army of 60,000 men? The difference between Polybius’ figures for Hasdrubal and Syphax’ armies is the exact number of infantry and cavalry (about 20,000 men and 7,000 cavalry) as given by Appian for Hasdrubal’s army. (12)
So how did Polybius or his source arrive at Syphax having an army of 60,000 men? The answer can be found in Appian’s narrative of the events surrounding the battle of Utica. Scattered throughout Appian’s account of the many skirmishers and Carthaginian troop movements preceding the battle of Utica, and also including the battle of Utica, that detail the number of Carthaginian infantry, cavalry, slaves, Carthaginians killed, Carthaginians that escaped, Carthaginian prisoners and the Carthaginian recruits levied after the battle. These various figures, when tallied, amount to 50,200 infantry and 9,700 cavalry, which has been rounded by Polybius to 50,000 infantry and ‘about’ 10,000 cavalry, and then given as Syphax’s army.
Syphax’s Infantry
6000 infantry (Appian Punic War 9)
5000 slaves (Appian Punic War 9)
20000 infantry (Appian) Punic War 13)
5000 dead (Appian Punic War 15)
1800 prisoners (Appian Punic War 15)
2400 prisoners (Appian Punic War 23)
8000 infantry reinforcements (Appian Punic War 24)
2000 infantry (Polybius 14 6 3)
50200 men (rounded to 50,000 infantry)
Syphax’s Cavalry
600 cavalry (Appian Punic War 9)
7000 cavalry (Appian Punic War 13)
1000 cavalry (Appian Punic War 14)
600 cavalry surrender (Appian Punic War 23)
500 cavalry escaped (Appian Punic War 24)
9700 men (rounded to about 10,000 cavalry)
In conclusion, Polybius’ figure of 93,000 men for the Carthaginian army at Utica has been arrived at by counting the Carthaginian slaves, the Carthaginians killed and captured before, during the battle, and after the battle of Utica as belonging to Syphax, plus Hasdrubal’s 30,000 infantry and 3,000 cavalry. Polybius’ 60,000 men for Syphax’ s army is a complete fabrication, which, if Polybius was responsible for manipulating these figures, must surely bring Polybius’ reputation of being the most reliable historian into question.
Justin wrote:
The real question is why was Polybius taken seriously at all if he reproduced such howlers as fabricated major battles?
No, the real question is as I have stated, was when did Polybius became mainstream with the Romans? The next question is why did Polybius reproduce such howlers as fabricated numbers for the Carthaginian army at Utica?
Justin wrote
Such as?
Hitler won the leadership of the Nazi Party by one vote.
Carrots help you see in the dark.
Japanese troops were experienced jungle fighters
Hitler held back the development of the Me 262
Most Americans volunteered in WW2
The majority of Japanese civilians died from the two atomic bombs.
The atomic bombs convince Japan to surrender.
The Polish cavalry charged German tanks
General Yamashita hid millions in gold somewhere in Manila
The saying “the whole nine yards” meant the measure of a machine gun’s ammunition.
Hitler let the British escape at Dunkirk
Germany invaded Russia because Russia was going to invade Germany.
