Germanic Urbanisation & Infrastructure Post Augustus

[Robert Vermaat]

 I think Nathan was referencing the sudden capacity and willingness of the Germanic people’s ability to defeat Roman armies on Roman soil after the mid 2nd century AD, when for the two centuries previous Germans tribes had seemingly lacked the ability to organise such large scale expeditions into Roman territory and defeat the legions on flat open ground. (i.e. not a wooded forest like Teutoburg)

We know what the symptoms of this change in the strategic and tactical outlook for the Empire are. (Defeated roman armies, dead Generals and later Emperors, cities long though ‘safe’ besieged and in some cases sacked etc). 

I doubt that Nathan was looking it that way, because this was by no means a new thing. Given the numbers, Germanic forces had long since broken through the Roman frontiers, being as capable and willing to attack Roman troops and cities as the later Franks etc. would do. The Marcomannic wars causing Aurelian to build Rome's war happened much earlier that the formation of the Saxon and Frankish tribes - I'm noit even thinking of the Cimbri and Teutones who I believe were Celtic, but it certainly shows this was by no means new. 
Also, it was not very common for any such group to defeat a Roman army in the field, frankly I don't know any such occasion before Adrianople in 378. So I dare say there was no 'new' tactital outlook either. 

It’s believed now it was the Goths migrating south from Scandinavia to modern day Ukraine around 100 AD that triggered the Marcomannic Wars as other tribes with Germania and Sythia scattered to get out of their way, pushing their own neighbouring tribes into the borders of Roman Empire. To be honest I’m not quite quite sure I believe this as the earlier idea of one population driving another to flight has been discredited, and it’s more likely it would be the the ruling elite (the King, his court, his personnel following of warriors and all their families, servants and hangers on. 

I don't believe it either, especially not in this case, as we know the Goths (or later what would later become the Goths) spread from the Baltic to the Black Sea but after 161 they somehow did not cause such widespread confusion throughout Middle Europe or Scythia (not Sythia). 
So if you don't believe it, why mention it?

I agree with Nathan in so far that I think there was something of a parasitical relationship between Rome and the Barbarian’s, and I think it was this along with multiple other contributing factors (including possibly Han China on the other side of the world) that eventually morphed the Barbarians into a much more powerful and capable military threat that eventually consumed the western half of the Roman Empire. 

Yes, I think it is commonly accepted nowadays that the later Germanic 'supertribes' (such as the Goths) thanked their formation history to a large extent to the 'hard' Roman border. Their internal structure changed due to that contact, as well as weaponbry and tactics. 

I think the problem is over the following centuries both trade and tribute from the much wealthier and economically developed Roman Empire eliminated the incentives for the Germanic tribes to fight each other for plunder and wealth, which led to the first tribal confederation and kingdoms, or ‘super-tribes’ as you’ve referred to them. [/font][/size][/color][/font][/size][/size][/color][/font][/size][/size][/size][/color][/font][/size][/color][/size]

No, there we disagree. Germanic tribes (as we know) never lost the incentive to fight each other, not even withing the new confederations. The drive to become larger would have been due to the aforementioned changes due to prolonged contact with the Empire, leading to larger military structures for both offensive as well as defensive purposes - if one group would become, the others would have to follow, and such groups could attack the Romans much better, or defend themselves against a Roman action.
The Romans could still defend themselves by buying off certain leaders, weakening any confederation. And as for instance the war against Atilla clearly shows, such confederations were never solid entities - their fighting each other within the Hun and Roman armies is telling enough. 

Gut instinct tells me the Germanic tribes should have undergone a transformation similar to the Celtic tribes in Gaul prior to the Gallic Wars, accept at an accelerated rate of development as it was contact with the Mediterranean world over several hundred years via Italy that spurned the Gauls into developing towns, clearing and cultivating woodlands into farmlands and building roads, bridges etc. (At least that is my understanding of it)

I think that is not how archaeology sees it. Celt built towns long before any contact with the Romans and in areas far away from the Romans.

The only thing that doesn’t make any sense to me about this particular scenario is how these Germanic Kingdoms could seemingly so frequently trounce Roman armies as the y did in the Marcomannic Wars, and the later invasions and migrations of the 3rd - 5th centuries if the Romans could so easily cut off their supplies off grain, weapons and armour. In fact the success of these invasions and later migrations would indicate exactly the opposite. That these Germanic Kingdoms possessed logistical and manufacturing capacity comparable to Rome. The only problem with this notion is according to Nathan and others I’ve talked to there does not seem to be any signs of such urban infrastructure existing around this time in Germania and Sythia. 

I don't see the occasions in which the Germanic tribes "so frequently trounce[d] Roman armies as the y did in the Marcomannic Wars". Where do you see evidence for the fact that they "possessed logistical and manufacturing capacity comparable to Rome"? Invading a province, stealing the crops from the land or the towns and returning home afterwards does not in any way show that. Indeed, there was no such thing as urbanisation in Germania or Scythia (not Sythia). Only in the former Roman provinces do we see anything developing like that after Germanic kingdoms were established. Any new developments there or outside the former Empire were centuries away.