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Revisiting Zama
#9
(07-05-2019, 06:06 AM)Paralus Wrote:
(07-04-2019, 07:33 AM)MichaelĀ Collins Wrote: Polybius bias is so very obvious here in this and in other examples in this campaign also (he does not mention Octavius` victory over Vermina, nor Q. Minucius Thermus` action, for two instances), it`s difficult to dismiss the possibility that he knowingly covered up the truth in order to present Scipio Africanus in a better light.

It is well to note that Polybios is extremely lacunose concerning the African campaign. Book 15 begins with what is clearly a repeat of the fact that the Roman supply ships had been captured by Carthage and goes on to tell us the results. This action was evidently recounted in Book 14. The cavalry defeats you speak of will also have been placed in book 14. We cannot say, with any real certainty, what Polybios did or did not say about these due to the state of Book 14.

Interesting that Appian, too, presents the "three spies". Agreed this is not likely to have happened, nor the meeting of the two belligerents.


Yes, why Hannibal would need a reconnaissance of Scipio`s forces if he had already engaged with the enemy`s cavalry several days beforehand ?

I believe that somewhere along the line, a meeting did take place between Hannibal and Scipio because of the nature of the real battle of Zama the stratgeic situation had changed, the two generals returned to their operational bases and some form of armistice or agreement must have existed.
Appian mentions an initial settlement between the commanders mediated by Massinissa and that interesting because:
1. Hannibal already knows Massinissa is in the area
2. This is after the cavalry battle
3. Most likely it was Massinissa (commanding the light horse) who was the most forward Roman-allied senior general, and quite apart from his earlier affiliations with Carthage, he would naturally be the enemy commander through whom Hannibal would need to initiate contact to open negotiations with Scipio.
Hannibal had suffered a defeat (a cavalry battle), but he remains in command of Carthaginian forces and Scipio`s conditions are not agreed to by the Carthaginian senate for another two months after the cavalry battle of Zama.

Polybius was perhaps the first to state that the meeting between the generals took place before, rather than after Zama.
Relying upon Polybius` authority and obliged to follow him, but also with access to more detailed/credible earlier versions of events, Appian is unable to avoid creating doubles like this.
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Messages In This Thread
Revisiting Zama - by Nick the Noodle - 05-13-2019, 06:47 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Nick the Noodle - 05-17-2019, 10:13 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Robert Vermaat - 05-26-2019, 02:45 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Currahee Chris - 05-23-2019, 07:24 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 06-09-2019, 05:49 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Nick the Noodle - 12-15-2019, 12:55 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 01-06-2020, 11:05 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-03-2019, 09:45 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-04-2019, 07:33 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-05-2019, 06:06 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-05-2019, 08:24 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-07-2019, 02:31 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-07-2019, 10:32 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-07-2019, 10:49 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Renatus - 07-07-2019, 11:50 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-08-2019, 04:01 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-08-2019, 10:08 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-08-2019, 12:34 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-08-2019, 01:20 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-08-2019, 02:43 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-10-2019, 02:00 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-10-2019, 05:16 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-11-2019, 02:20 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-13-2019, 06:44 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-12-2019, 06:57 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-14-2019, 12:11 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-15-2019, 05:29 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-19-2019, 11:25 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 07-19-2019, 12:26 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-19-2019, 12:50 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-19-2019, 01:45 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-19-2019, 02:12 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 07-19-2019, 09:39 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 07-20-2019, 02:41 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-20-2019, 03:00 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Renatus - 07-20-2019, 12:26 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-21-2019, 11:32 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Renatus - 07-22-2019, 06:33 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 07-22-2019, 08:36 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 07-20-2019, 07:43 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-14-2019, 08:58 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Renatus - 07-22-2019, 09:24 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 08-06-2019, 02:27 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 08-15-2019, 05:58 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 08-22-2019, 11:17 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-07-2019, 09:30 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-08-2019, 04:52 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-08-2019, 11:51 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-09-2019, 07:03 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-09-2019, 12:13 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-09-2019, 01:47 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 09-10-2019, 11:50 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-10-2019, 03:47 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Paralus - 09-11-2019, 12:38 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-11-2019, 02:38 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-11-2019, 05:48 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-18-2019, 11:14 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-18-2019, 11:28 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-19-2019, 10:33 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-19-2019, 12:43 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-19-2019, 02:30 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-19-2019, 03:51 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 09-21-2019, 01:11 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-21-2019, 02:13 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-22-2019, 08:59 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 09-22-2019, 01:19 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-22-2019, 02:25 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 09-23-2019, 10:19 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-24-2019, 09:17 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-24-2019, 10:48 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-25-2019, 10:05 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-27-2019, 09:12 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-27-2019, 09:20 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael J. Taylor - 09-27-2019, 11:44 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-27-2019, 12:36 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-27-2019, 02:59 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-29-2019, 01:10 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-30-2019, 03:08 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-30-2019, 06:33 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 09-30-2019, 07:04 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 09-30-2019, 08:11 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 10-01-2019, 07:27 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 10-02-2019, 04:15 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 10-02-2019, 10:05 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Steven James - 10-09-2019, 05:31 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 10-17-2019, 02:05 PM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 10-29-2019, 10:22 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 10-30-2019, 11:26 AM
RE: Revisiting Zama - by Michael Collins - 01-08-2020, 05:00 PM

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