08-31-2018, 05:24 AM
Nathan wrote:
This sounds like you are reducing the ten-deep formation to an eight-deep formation by taking away two ranks to act as 'camp guards' (again!). Is that right? Do you mean two ranks from each of the three acies?
“Pompey’s three battlelines each of 125 maniples produced a frontage of 1,500 men (4,500 feet) and a depth of 30 men.
After the removal of the 3,000 older pilani as camp guards (ranks nine and ten) taken from the pilani, Pompey’s remaining 42,000 legionaries had a depth of 28 men.
Nathan wrote:
Why would Frontinus say that Pompeius had drawn his men up in three ten-deep lines if it was actually three eight-deep lines (or two ten-deep and one eight-deep)? They can't be in the ranks and guarding the camp at the same time.
Maybe Frontinus rounded the 28 deep to 30 deep, so as to save time and explanation, as remember, he is writing about stratagems as a whole. Many of his stratagems do not cover minute detail.
Anyway I have presented my case with that paper and it is up to you to prove different.
Nathan wrote:
And how do you figure auxiliaries (allied troops at this date) being integrated with legion cohorts and even with centuries? How would that work?
Your problem is you have only concerned yourself with the principate period.
Frontinus (Stratagem 5 7 27) Scipio Aemililanus distributed his archers and slingers among the cohorts and centuries. Vegetius (1 15) Scipio “incorporate picked archers in all the centuries.” Sallust (Jugurthine War 49), (46 7), (49 6), the consul Metellus distributed the slingers and archers between the maniples.
In my legion array, a specific number of archers and slingers are placed in the gaps between the maniples. Now you must remember I have five maniples in each line, with enough space for the archers. In fact there should be enough space for an officer with a horse to ride between the maniple gaps.
Following these examples, where would you place the archers and slingers. And yes I am aware of reference of them being placed in front of the army and on the flanks.
In his account of the battle of Pharsalus, Appian writes that as the opposing armies came nearer: “there was first a discharge of arrows and stones.” In Dio’s account of the first battle of Philippi, after the signal to commence battle was sounded: “the heavy troops gave the war-cry, beat their shields with their spears and then hurled their spears, while the slingers and the archers discharged their stones and missiles.”
Where do you think these troops are stationed Nathan?
Michael wrote:
However, if a chiliarchos is a tribune and a hekontarchos is a centurion, this would mean that a tribune commanded 10 centurions, not five.
I’m having this conversation with DeVoto right now. I am for a tribune commanding ten centuries. It has been that way since the three tribes of Romulus. I also have been discussing with Devoto the size of Arrian’s legions, which are not full strength legions.
This sounds like you are reducing the ten-deep formation to an eight-deep formation by taking away two ranks to act as 'camp guards' (again!). Is that right? Do you mean two ranks from each of the three acies?
“Pompey’s three battlelines each of 125 maniples produced a frontage of 1,500 men (4,500 feet) and a depth of 30 men.
15000 Hastati 10 deep
15000 Princeps 10 deep
15000 Pilani 10 deep
45000 men 30 deep
After the removal of the 3,000 older pilani as camp guards (ranks nine and ten) taken from the pilani, Pompey’s remaining 42,000 legionaries had a depth of 28 men.
15000 Hastati 10 deep
15000 Princeps 10 deep
12000 Pilani 8 deep
42000 men 28 deep
Nathan wrote:
Why would Frontinus say that Pompeius had drawn his men up in three ten-deep lines if it was actually three eight-deep lines (or two ten-deep and one eight-deep)? They can't be in the ranks and guarding the camp at the same time.
Maybe Frontinus rounded the 28 deep to 30 deep, so as to save time and explanation, as remember, he is writing about stratagems as a whole. Many of his stratagems do not cover minute detail.
Anyway I have presented my case with that paper and it is up to you to prove different.
Nathan wrote:
And how do you figure auxiliaries (allied troops at this date) being integrated with legion cohorts and even with centuries? How would that work?
Your problem is you have only concerned yourself with the principate period.
Frontinus (Stratagem 5 7 27) Scipio Aemililanus distributed his archers and slingers among the cohorts and centuries. Vegetius (1 15) Scipio “incorporate picked archers in all the centuries.” Sallust (Jugurthine War 49), (46 7), (49 6), the consul Metellus distributed the slingers and archers between the maniples.
In my legion array, a specific number of archers and slingers are placed in the gaps between the maniples. Now you must remember I have five maniples in each line, with enough space for the archers. In fact there should be enough space for an officer with a horse to ride between the maniple gaps.
Following these examples, where would you place the archers and slingers. And yes I am aware of reference of them being placed in front of the army and on the flanks.
In his account of the battle of Pharsalus, Appian writes that as the opposing armies came nearer: “there was first a discharge of arrows and stones.” In Dio’s account of the first battle of Philippi, after the signal to commence battle was sounded: “the heavy troops gave the war-cry, beat their shields with their spears and then hurled their spears, while the slingers and the archers discharged their stones and missiles.”
Where do you think these troops are stationed Nathan?
Michael wrote:
However, if a chiliarchos is a tribune and a hekontarchos is a centurion, this would mean that a tribune commanded 10 centurions, not five.
I’m having this conversation with DeVoto right now. I am for a tribune commanding ten centuries. It has been that way since the three tribes of Romulus. I also have been discussing with Devoto the size of Arrian’s legions, which are not full strength legions.
