Anything published is fair game to be criticized as well as anything posted here, but please folks read what you are criticizing so harshly and be aware especially when it comes to translations and interpretations of ancient texts that there are often multiple versions of the same text. We tend to accept the version that agrees with our pov, which is natural. Kudos to Paul for acknowledging that he missed a reference to this forum. Most of us just go silent when a mistake is corrected. I really wonder how many folks here have read Scott's book.
My most recent interest in this often discussed topic began with the publication of a new test of linen armor in the book "Why Leather?" The book is free to read online and the section on leather and linen armor is quite interesting. The author does not add glue to dry linen before testing, rather he boils his linen in water saturated with glue. At the same time I noticed a reference to Greek "linen boilers" in an ancient text from 250 BC and was curious so I asked him some follow up questions and await his replies. Before calling the author an idiot, please read the section first.
Same goes for criticism of Hero Granger-Taylor's conclusions on the linen fragment she analyzed from Masada in the book "Wearing the Cloak." She clearly is a world expert and has access to other experts to discuss these topics with before this publication. She clearly states the fragment in question may not be Roman at all, it may be from a Jewish fighter who would have used what was most common at that time and place, armor of Greek Hellenistic influence. Regarding the linen fragment in question she clearly states that it appears to be "pressed or polished, and "some kind of additional material appears to have been rubbed into it." That material is still present in fact as a whitish powdery substance. No analysis is mentioned, but no doubt an analysis will be made at some point. If such an analysis has been made I am not aware it and would be grateful to know the results. She also includes two high quality pictures of the fragment and the linen does not appear to be layers. In the end she believes that this and other fragments were from pteryges, either the shoulder or waist versions.
Unless you have read he report please don't call her a fraud seeking to sell books, or just an idiot who does not know what she is talking about.
"Meanwhile, two questions for you:
*In Alexander's time we may conservatively estimate that there were over 100,000 hoplites and phalangites in Greece/Macedon. Each corselet needed many metres of linen - so millions of metres of very expensive linen needed. Where did it come from and how was it paid for ?
* Despite modern experiments, no ancient glue can be made to work successfully, as far as I know, so what was the 'glue' you claim was used ? ( Aldrete et al reckoned 'rabbit' glue, which is variously reported as being bought in an art store, or that they made it themselves )"
There is no doubt in my mind or anyone I have consulted with that providing enough linen for the numbers you refer to was certainly possible at that time. Flax production was already well established by that period from a number of well-known sources especially Egypt, which under the Ptolemies was a quasi-state run enterprise. As for how it was paid for, the Hellenistic Kingdoms were arguably the richest on Earth at the time and their economies were highly monetized.
Regarding glue, Aldrete did not use common ancient fish bladder glue, which I would have used as it has some interesting properties. When certain types of fish glue is boiled with milk it apparently becomes water proof. That does not mean rabbit or any other glue was not suitable or widely available, but I don't know what you mean by "no ancient glue can be made to work successfully." In what regards?
"The Romans did not use linen armour militarily"
Does any believe that they never used linen? There is no doubt, really no doubt at all, that Rome was highly influenced by the Etruscans to the north and the Greeks to the south and both used linen armor of some sort. Regarding the Etruscans, I again refer to "Wearing the Cloak" where Margarita Gelb in "Linen-Clad Etruscan Warriors" presents her case.
BTW add Gelb and Granger-Taylor to the long list of experts who believe the Greeks used linen armor.
My most recent interest in this often discussed topic began with the publication of a new test of linen armor in the book "Why Leather?" The book is free to read online and the section on leather and linen armor is quite interesting. The author does not add glue to dry linen before testing, rather he boils his linen in water saturated with glue. At the same time I noticed a reference to Greek "linen boilers" in an ancient text from 250 BC and was curious so I asked him some follow up questions and await his replies. Before calling the author an idiot, please read the section first.
Same goes for criticism of Hero Granger-Taylor's conclusions on the linen fragment she analyzed from Masada in the book "Wearing the Cloak." She clearly is a world expert and has access to other experts to discuss these topics with before this publication. She clearly states the fragment in question may not be Roman at all, it may be from a Jewish fighter who would have used what was most common at that time and place, armor of Greek Hellenistic influence. Regarding the linen fragment in question she clearly states that it appears to be "pressed or polished, and "some kind of additional material appears to have been rubbed into it." That material is still present in fact as a whitish powdery substance. No analysis is mentioned, but no doubt an analysis will be made at some point. If such an analysis has been made I am not aware it and would be grateful to know the results. She also includes two high quality pictures of the fragment and the linen does not appear to be layers. In the end she believes that this and other fragments were from pteryges, either the shoulder or waist versions.
Unless you have read he report please don't call her a fraud seeking to sell books, or just an idiot who does not know what she is talking about.
"Meanwhile, two questions for you:
*In Alexander's time we may conservatively estimate that there were over 100,000 hoplites and phalangites in Greece/Macedon. Each corselet needed many metres of linen - so millions of metres of very expensive linen needed. Where did it come from and how was it paid for ?
* Despite modern experiments, no ancient glue can be made to work successfully, as far as I know, so what was the 'glue' you claim was used ? ( Aldrete et al reckoned 'rabbit' glue, which is variously reported as being bought in an art store, or that they made it themselves )"
There is no doubt in my mind or anyone I have consulted with that providing enough linen for the numbers you refer to was certainly possible at that time. Flax production was already well established by that period from a number of well-known sources especially Egypt, which under the Ptolemies was a quasi-state run enterprise. As for how it was paid for, the Hellenistic Kingdoms were arguably the richest on Earth at the time and their economies were highly monetized.
Regarding glue, Aldrete did not use common ancient fish bladder glue, which I would have used as it has some interesting properties. When certain types of fish glue is boiled with milk it apparently becomes water proof. That does not mean rabbit or any other glue was not suitable or widely available, but I don't know what you mean by "no ancient glue can be made to work successfully." In what regards?
"The Romans did not use linen armour militarily"
Does any believe that they never used linen? There is no doubt, really no doubt at all, that Rome was highly influenced by the Etruscans to the north and the Greeks to the south and both used linen armor of some sort. Regarding the Etruscans, I again refer to "Wearing the Cloak" where Margarita Gelb in "Linen-Clad Etruscan Warriors" presents her case.
BTW add Gelb and Granger-Taylor to the long list of experts who believe the Greeks used linen armor.
Joe Balmos
