Bryan, Nathan:
Thing is, this whole debate needs to be divided to preMarian and post Marian legionaries.. Legionaries in the time of Caesar, were military professionals.. they were no longer militias joining for a short campaign, but were men who signed a contract to serve for a long period of time. (plus, my original intent was to find out how many of them could actually have high/good quality armor)
My whole point was concerning those Pre-Marian Militia/levy men, who were not professional soldiers, but ordinary farmers who spent their lives working in the field, and occasionally went to war to fulfill their commitment to the state. Physical constitution of a farmer usually deteriorates towards one end - you end up with a bad back.. something that would eventually even prevent from using javelins - another reason why Triarii didnt had them perhaps?
Of course Caesarean veterans were a different sort, had much more endurance etc.. for example in 18.century, it was common that if a recruit survived first 6 months on campaign, he would most likely survive anything (except a bullet or a sword of course) but the survival rate was quite bad btw, he got accustomed to conditions of being always on the move, having scarce food,built his immunity towards germs etc etc... Yet, things like this would be quite different for a Militia, which only participated on a campaign for a short period of time, and even if some of them had to stay for longer, eventually they returned to their farm and didn't enlisted next year.
Its a well known fact for example that if you stop excercise, you will lose most of your build up strength just after 2 weeks without training. Then it will take almost 8 weeks of training to return back to previous shape.. human physiology can adapt relatively quickly to the better, but not as quickly for the bad..
Actually, i think name Hastati came from a throwing Hasta, not the thrusting one.. if I recall correctly it was Ennius who wrote poem that""Hastati spargunt hastas, fit ferreus imber" - Hastati hurl hastae, making a shower of iron" which kinda suggest that for Romans, they could call even a javelin Hasta... maybe before they got Pilum, they could have used some heavier Javelins that would be similar to thrusting Hasta.
do i recall it right, Ennius was a legionarii during first Punnic War?
Thing is, this whole debate needs to be divided to preMarian and post Marian legionaries.. Legionaries in the time of Caesar, were military professionals.. they were no longer militias joining for a short campaign, but were men who signed a contract to serve for a long period of time. (plus, my original intent was to find out how many of them could actually have high/good quality armor)
My whole point was concerning those Pre-Marian Militia/levy men, who were not professional soldiers, but ordinary farmers who spent their lives working in the field, and occasionally went to war to fulfill their commitment to the state. Physical constitution of a farmer usually deteriorates towards one end - you end up with a bad back.. something that would eventually even prevent from using javelins - another reason why Triarii didnt had them perhaps?
Of course Caesarean veterans were a different sort, had much more endurance etc.. for example in 18.century, it was common that if a recruit survived first 6 months on campaign, he would most likely survive anything (except a bullet or a sword of course) but the survival rate was quite bad btw, he got accustomed to conditions of being always on the move, having scarce food,built his immunity towards germs etc etc... Yet, things like this would be quite different for a Militia, which only participated on a campaign for a short period of time, and even if some of them had to stay for longer, eventually they returned to their farm and didn't enlisted next year.
Its a well known fact for example that if you stop excercise, you will lose most of your build up strength just after 2 weeks without training. Then it will take almost 8 weeks of training to return back to previous shape.. human physiology can adapt relatively quickly to the better, but not as quickly for the bad..
Quote:Incidentally, I came across this interesting old post by Kate Gilliver that suggests (following one Walbank) that the hastati were originally also armed with the hasta, and the principes were the front line fighters!
Actually, i think name Hastati came from a throwing Hasta, not the thrusting one.. if I recall correctly it was Ennius who wrote poem that""Hastati spargunt hastas, fit ferreus imber" - Hastati hurl hastae, making a shower of iron" which kinda suggest that for Romans, they could call even a javelin Hasta... maybe before they got Pilum, they could have used some heavier Javelins that would be similar to thrusting Hasta.
do i recall it right, Ennius was a legionarii during first Punnic War?
Jaroslav Jakubov
