Gladius discussion (was: show your gladius off)

[Bryan]

Well, since Celtiberians were the basic designers of both blades, it's not surprising that they are similar...

I think the Mainz style Gladius was purely a Roman design as it appears in the latter half of the 1st Cent BC, well after the Celtibernians were subdued, and continued on in used for quite some time, until gradually replaced by the Pompeii style. Are you referring to the original Gladius Hispaniensis in general? Because that blade style had little in common with the Mainz other than the tang and that they were both double bladed. Most Glad. Hispaniensis were straight bladed and had thinner blades, whereas nearly all pugio and Mainz Gladius are fat and are wasp-waisted.

I meant both earlier Gladius Hispaniensis and Mainz, but Mainz as a more romanized version... But look at this Celtiberian sword from 4th/3rd century BC (photo by Manuel Velasco) and tell me it couldn't be a prototype for a mainz/fulham type gladii:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/142285669451717641/

Very interesting. But I looked at other versions of the Arcobriga type swords (couldn't find many) and not all were as wasp waisted as the one you linked to. Now compare that to a pugio, which in nearly every case was heavily wasted.

Here is another very "mainz"-ish celtiberian shortsword:
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10234037

And here is a celtiberian dagger, very similar to later pugios:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/512354895082191269/

I never said both pugio and gladius descended from the same ancestor, spanish swords were inspiration, at least party, for the gladius, and spanish daggers are obvious ancestor of the pugio.

I think we might be saying the same thing while talking around one another. First, there may some issues with terminology so I want to clear a few things up. In my mind, gladius means sword, not a specific style, just Latin for sword. For early Roman period, ensis was used, then gladius replaced it in common Latin. So most swords, unless another type of name existed to describe the style (like a Machaera) would have been called a gladius. They weren't just the stabby short swords that heavy armored Roman infantry carried, that's just an internetism.

The most famous gladius is the gladius hispaniensis, the Spanish Sword. This was the name commonly given to the longer Republican era sword (Delos, Smihel), then still used for the Mainz style, then the offshoot Fulham, and then the Pompeii. All were still called Spanish Swords by authors as the name seems to have become synonymous with the Roman military sword. (I won't be getting into the Spatha or ring pommel gladius to avoid confusion).

Dr. F. Quesada Sanz has researched the evolution of Iberian swords and has found that his Type VI Arcobriga (the sword type you posted a few back) is NOT the descendant of the Gladius Hispaniensis. The blade was too short, the hilt different, and it seems to have disappeared too early. Quesada believes the true descendant of the Roman "Spanish Sword" was a Iberian version of the La Tene I double edged sword, abandoned earlier by the Gauls for the longer slashing La Tene II (III) swords, but kept and still made and used inside Iberia. So likely, the Gladius Hispaniensis was that sword.

But around the mid 1st Cent. BC, the Mainz style Gladius Hispaniensis emerged and seems to have completely replaced the older longer thinner version of the Spanish Sword by the 1st Cent. AD. My question is where did this sword come from?

One possible speculative theory is that it was a modern version of the Type VI Arcobriga sword, lengthened some and with a different tang/pommel. The problem with that is that by the 1st Cent BC period, the Type VI was "extinct" and was no longer being made or used by anyone.

The Pugio, a Puncher, was another weapon, a fighting dagger, which evolved from a Iberians version. I won't get into its history, but in my theory it goes like this:

Due to the popularity of the Pugio style daggers being used more and more by the 1st Cent. BC time period, and maybe partly due to other issues with construction methods of longer swords (original Gladius Hispaniensis were 24-26"x 1.75"), some armorers and military purchasers decided to go with a shorter and wider design of the Mainz, 21"x 2.6"), in a shape reminiscent of a Pugio, but with a different hilt design (borrowed from older Gladius), with the mid rib removed (not necessary to stiffen blade with a more pronounced diamond cross section), with a longer point (for thrusting and to lengthen), but keeping the overall shape of the wasting (for shifting POB for cutting as well as style), and lastly the flared shoulder of the tang (one of the biggest similarities between Mainz and pugio besides blade waist shape).

Iberian La Tene I Sword evolves into Original Gladius Hispaniensis

Iberian Dagger evolves into Pugio Dagger

Original Gladius Hispaniensis + Pugio = Mainz Gladius Hispaniensis