08-02-2014, 10:28 PM
Quote:Just some observations about the upper drawings. since I am currently analyzing a lot of iconography showing Roman, and mainly Gladiator Scutum and Gladius techniques.
Since you correctly show the possibilities of applying leverage to the horizontal gripped Scutum, it dies not make any sense for it not to be firmly backed up by your knee and shoulder, at least when advancing into engagement range.
I think it does make sense to not always use the same position. I think the fighting position should reflect the environment, the armament and skill levels of the opponent and the mindset of the individual themselves. To limit yourself to only fighting from a braced position limits the availability of your moves. From the braced crouch, you are limited to a basic shield check (out and back in and braced) or a few sword thrusts or cuts from around the side or top of the shield. Also, it limits the movement of the fighter, as the footwork and movement direction is also more rigid. I'm not stating its not a good stance, but once in it, as well as your opponent, you are basically limited in moves to pictures H. & I., both of with require little in the way of skill, relying more on aggressiveness, luck, and how well you are armored. I think that many did fight in a braced position, especially as more and more Romans fought against opponents that were similarly armed and trained. This made H. & I. the norm in most fights, unfortunately, especially in Roman vs. Roman battles. This could explain the possible change in equipment, more protective helmet, shorter swords, heavier body armor, and even manicae.
Also, fighting from braced positions means its harder to move it. That means your shield can only block, not parry. Should you parry, you will have to move the shield and then you won't be braced anymore anyway. Against arrows, sling bullets, javelins, pikes, one handed spears, and even sword slashes against the edge (Gallic cutting swords), bracing the shield completely makes it easier to pierce it than by holding the shield loosely, which helps deflect it.
Again, not discounting the position, especially considering how often its portrayed in iconography but to say its the "only" way I think is wrong. Its one way. Besides, someone could be standing in a looser fighting stance such as A. and in less than a second be in a crouched braced stance.
Olaf Wrote:
In C. it does not make a lot of sense for Red to duck down, as he would then expose even more of his shield shoulder and arm to the attack of Purple. Though he might achieve a hit on purples leg he would be hit also, which is never a good idea in combat. If possible red could retreat, and/or cut into the attack of purple to misalign the attack or hit the weapon arm (thats what Manicae were designed to protect against.) Red could also raise the shield high to protect his face and shoulder and only after successfully blocking the attack of purple he could start a counterattack.
If Red doens't duck immediately after the top of his shield shoots away from him, he's going to swallow a gladius, like Caesar's Crastinus. When his shield is tilted, Red from Diagram C. would be as exposed as Purple is in Diagram B., whose entire upper body is open to an overarm or high line thrust. So he has to duck. Wearing a helmet and body armor, Red will probably survive Purple's attempt at a downward stab, especially if Purple didn't expect Red to crouch, which could throw off his aim. Remember, this is happening really fast, in a second or less.
Jump in, Shield strike against bottom of opponent's shield, tilt it, immediately stab at face. Hop back.
So in the case of Red in Diagram C., Purple closes in, does a horizontal shield strike and tilts Red's shield. Boom, Red duck's instantly, knowing what is coming next. As he does duck, he stab around the side of his own shield at Purple's leg (aimed at upper thigh or side of knee).
Like a boxing combination. Get in, attack in a combination learnt during training, get back, reassess and plan next attack. Or Parry and riposte. Quick, little thinking, all prerehearsed in sparring and on the pella post.
Retreating is an always an option, I could have made an entire set of diagrams of Red attacking and Purple retreating, that would be pretty boring. While Gladiators wore Manicae, Roman soldiers for the most part didn't, making protecting the sword arm paramount, so attempting to cut or thrust attack at an enemy's attacking arm carries a large risk.
Olaf Wrote:
E: in pressing his shield into the shield of purple, red invites an attack to his shoulder, even before he has opened up the lower area of his enemy.
I had a bit of trouble with this drawing, I should have added one more. In E., after his shield is pressed back, he's still straight up, even though the top of his shield was rocked back into his face area. The natural reaction to this type of attack would be for Purple to lean his head to the rear, away from his shield. So in the sequence it would be Red Shield Presses Purple's shield, tilting it torward Purple's face. In response Purple moves his head back at the same instant that Red crouches low and attacks lower. So unless Red was unusually slow, or Purple exceptionally fast and quick thinking, Purple's lower body has more to worry about in this sequence that Red's upper body.
Olaf Wrote:
F/G That is exactly the reason why shield thrusts above the height of the Umbo are quite suicidal. The fighter being attacked can also just bring his sword under the riim of his enemys shield instead of his own shield to push the Scutum aside and expose his enemy completely.
Horizontal Shield Rim Strikes are a high risk move but it certainly isn't suicidal. Diagram F. shows Red either killing or seriously incapacitating Purple. Remember, we're talking about the metal cover rim of a 7 kg shield moving very fast. If the opponent is slow, apprehensive, timid, or untrained, its definitely an option. Even if it is blocked, the attack is hard enough that it can still scare an enemy, unbalance him, or even tilt his shield, all of which can open him up for further attacks.
A high horizontal shield strike, because the large shield needs to move as much as it does, it quite telegraphed, meaning an opponent can see the move coming. Against a seasoned opponent, this can mean something like what happened in Diagram G. Red was able to read Purple's intentions and readied himself accordingly. In one motion, he raised his shield top, protecting his face, as he crouched down. As Purple's shield crashed into Red's, it tilts it, because Red isn't braced. Now Red's shield is under Purple's shield, trapping it from being lowered. Purple's only option is to retreat back quickly, to get enough room to pass Red's shield so he can lower his own. If Red follows Purple's retreat, Purple's shield is still trapped.
Olaf Wrote:
For those into historic fencing: the upper and lower edges of a Scutum are the "weak" of this "weapon" and its always not very good to let your enemy get into control of your "weak" with his "strong".
The parts of the sword referred to as the weak is also the part most commonly used to cause damage to an opponent. The thureos shield can be used as a weapon too, it just requires some audacity and skill.
Olaf Wrote:
H/I: Actually even with crouching at this range they will need either good armor coverage or superior reflexes to keep from killing each other simultaneously. This "close engagement range" is a kind of zone "of certain death" in many historic fencing styles and should only be moved into when you are in contact and control of your opponents weapon. In that case you can then move into wrestling if you want to. Otherwise stay out of this range.
I agree, that Diagrams H. & I. do not present an optimum setting for survival of either participant. In a gladiatorial fight, the size of the ring and the allowance to move in a 360 direction to avoid your opponent can mean it can be avoided as much as possible. In a battle setting, where battle lines close with each other and ground is contested, I thick however H. & I., while not desirable, would often happen. Especially during the time period of the 1st Cent AD and after, Romans fought other Romans quite often, as well as opponents that were armed and organized quite similarly to the Romans. I think the evolution of the helmet armor and the length of the swords, not to mention the improved tip (less pointy, more reliable to not break or bend) is proof that H. & I. was common enough.
However, against an enemy armed primarily with a thureos and spear (no sword in hand), getting in quick and applying the technique of Diagram I. could be a very efficient method.
Olaf Wrote:
One detail that is often overlooked in combat with shields, is that it is far safer not to stand frontally to each other, but a little bit to the left of your opponent, as this increases the distance of his sword arm to your most vulnerable opening, the front shoulder and your face above the Scutum.
This sounds like a very good method, especially in gladiatorial fighting. But in a battle line, standing just off to the left of your opponent just off from being in front of you puts you just a bit closer to the opponent at your diagonal right. That fighter is generally already a larger enough danger to you, I wouldn't be trying to make his job easier by placing my open inside line closer to him.
Olaf Wrote:
As far as close order fighting is concerned I think most fighters would have been very much preoccupied with the one enemy they would face before them and would have had little time to either attack or defend against the enemy to the left or right.
A tyro yes, but after the first or second time the opponent diagonally to your right attacks you, I'd hope you learn to keep your head on a swivel and to not get tunnel vision. Being cautious to a degree (read: not timid) and aware of surroundings is a good thing.
All told, nearly everything you stated is correct in one way or another and every thing I've said is also equally correct, we are just quibbling about technique. To get that far is great, considering how many historians and enthusiasts still describe Roman fighting as "block their blow with scutum, and then stick 'em two inches in the belly and move on." I firmly believe an actual martial art system, even a rudimentary version, existed. Romans worshiped their expensively made swords and complex shields for far too long to have never truly bothered to create an efficient way of using them in battle.
These diagrams only show a few of the many many possible techniques possible for someone armed with a sword and thureos/scutum. My next project will probably be to create some diagrams showing techniques useful against Rome's common opponents, like Gallic swordsmen, Lusitanian caetrati, Macedonian pikemen, Germanic thureos armed spearmen, and of course Dacian Falxmen. This is pretty fun, just wish I knew how to draw because stick figures on Paint is pretty time consuming.
