07-18-2014, 07:15 AM
Hi Michael,
No problem with the rambling, but I’ll address the logic if you will forgive me…
My post was directed against your claim that the Alans had already merged with the Vandals during their time in Spain.. I think we now agree that this did not take place.
The rest of your 2 posts are I think mostly about what happened after, which I did not say much about (being concerned with the period in Spain). But some comments, still:
It’s true that there is not much evidence about how the Alans fared in Africa, how if at all they retained customs etc. But then there is little evidence anyway of that, including the vandals, as far as I am aware. So it’s unfortunately not possible to see if or if not the Alans retained customs etc., and this equally means that you can’t make your point. We have not enough. But still, a few names, mosaics, titles.
I would not call the title ‘Rex Vandalorum et Alanorum’ a ‘hangover’, which suggests to me (like Urselius did a few posts earlier) that it was a meaningless relic. Titles are immensely important and not used, especially within decades of the event, without care. This is no ‘fossilised title’, it’s far too soon.
Was the title really dropped? Or merely left out by an author? It was apparently important enough to be revived by Justinian, which would be silly if there were no distinctive Alans around anymore. Your quote of Procopius supports that! There were evidently plenty of Alans around to be the cavalry of the vandals, and with recognisable names too. And that long after the crossing to Africa.
You agree that Alans and Vandals probably did not mix (thanks for that) but you propose that their numbers, after being defeated by the Goths. But those were not all the Alans in Spain. Wallia campaigned against the Vandals under Fredebal in Baetica and against the Alans under Addac (Attaces) in Lusitania, routing them in battle, reducing the latter so much that the survivors flee to the Asding Vandals.
Also, from Frigeridus we know that the Alans had earlier rescued the Vandals from annihilation by the Franks. We are probably reading about several different groups, not about all the Vandals and all the Alans.
The mosaic shows nothing more and nothing less than someone who is adapting to Roman culture, but still knows his past enough to value it. Unfortunately we know nothing more.
I like your family history. My sister-in-law also has relatives in the USA, who still have bumper stickers with ‘It ain’t much if it ain’t Dutch!’. However, I really doubt if all that stuff is more than superficial. I’ve been told by sociologists that a group is especially keen to stress their differences when in a situation where their identity is under threat – when they feel (unwanted) assimilation looms. This happens on borders but also when kids begin to adapt to the local culture. Dutch migrants are indeed far more (especially!) ken on windmills and that sort of stuff – no Dutch citizen owns that, it’s only for tourists!
And indeed, our Alan friend on the mosaic might be doing just the same as an American of Dutch descent, the tamga perhaps being his bumper sticker (love that image). :grin:
We don’t know!!!!
Indeed we have a poor understanding of how Germanic and Eurasian groups intermingle with Romans. We see a lot of ethnogenese going on, with traits from both forming a new group, even though (whether in Britain, Noricum or in Gaul) even more than a century later the legal system still clearly defines a person as belonging to one group or the other. Yet the Franks lose their German tongue over the centuries for instance, even though we cannot say for the lack of source how long that took. The names of kings (especially their nicknames) are German for quite some time.
Yet on the other hand, we completely lose sight of the Alans in Gaul, or the Taifali and such groups, which completely assimilate with the Gaulish provincials.
Oh and Michael, your mother missed her ice-skating but unfortunately, here in the Old Country we ALL miss our ice-skating. Last winter it was not cold enough for even one silly ditch to freeze over, so all Dutch skaters (save those going to a hall, but you can do that even in Qatar I’m told) had to go without. A great shame.
No problem with the rambling, but I’ll address the logic if you will forgive me…
My post was directed against your claim that the Alans had already merged with the Vandals during their time in Spain.. I think we now agree that this did not take place.
The rest of your 2 posts are I think mostly about what happened after, which I did not say much about (being concerned with the period in Spain). But some comments, still:
It’s true that there is not much evidence about how the Alans fared in Africa, how if at all they retained customs etc. But then there is little evidence anyway of that, including the vandals, as far as I am aware. So it’s unfortunately not possible to see if or if not the Alans retained customs etc., and this equally means that you can’t make your point. We have not enough. But still, a few names, mosaics, titles.
I would not call the title ‘Rex Vandalorum et Alanorum’ a ‘hangover’, which suggests to me (like Urselius did a few posts earlier) that it was a meaningless relic. Titles are immensely important and not used, especially within decades of the event, without care. This is no ‘fossilised title’, it’s far too soon.
Was the title really dropped? Or merely left out by an author? It was apparently important enough to be revived by Justinian, which would be silly if there were no distinctive Alans around anymore. Your quote of Procopius supports that! There were evidently plenty of Alans around to be the cavalry of the vandals, and with recognisable names too. And that long after the crossing to Africa.
You agree that Alans and Vandals probably did not mix (thanks for that) but you propose that their numbers, after being defeated by the Goths. But those were not all the Alans in Spain. Wallia campaigned against the Vandals under Fredebal in Baetica and against the Alans under Addac (Attaces) in Lusitania, routing them in battle, reducing the latter so much that the survivors flee to the Asding Vandals.
Also, from Frigeridus we know that the Alans had earlier rescued the Vandals from annihilation by the Franks. We are probably reading about several different groups, not about all the Vandals and all the Alans.
The mosaic shows nothing more and nothing less than someone who is adapting to Roman culture, but still knows his past enough to value it. Unfortunately we know nothing more.
I like your family history. My sister-in-law also has relatives in the USA, who still have bumper stickers with ‘It ain’t much if it ain’t Dutch!’. However, I really doubt if all that stuff is more than superficial. I’ve been told by sociologists that a group is especially keen to stress their differences when in a situation where their identity is under threat – when they feel (unwanted) assimilation looms. This happens on borders but also when kids begin to adapt to the local culture. Dutch migrants are indeed far more (especially!) ken on windmills and that sort of stuff – no Dutch citizen owns that, it’s only for tourists!
And indeed, our Alan friend on the mosaic might be doing just the same as an American of Dutch descent, the tamga perhaps being his bumper sticker (love that image). :grin:
We don’t know!!!!
Indeed we have a poor understanding of how Germanic and Eurasian groups intermingle with Romans. We see a lot of ethnogenese going on, with traits from both forming a new group, even though (whether in Britain, Noricum or in Gaul) even more than a century later the legal system still clearly defines a person as belonging to one group or the other. Yet the Franks lose their German tongue over the centuries for instance, even though we cannot say for the lack of source how long that took. The names of kings (especially their nicknames) are German for quite some time.
Yet on the other hand, we completely lose sight of the Alans in Gaul, or the Taifali and such groups, which completely assimilate with the Gaulish provincials.
Oh and Michael, your mother missed her ice-skating but unfortunately, here in the Old Country we ALL miss our ice-skating. Last winter it was not cold enough for even one silly ditch to freeze over, so all Dutch skaters (save those going to a hall, but you can do that even in Qatar I’m told) had to go without. A great shame.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
