10-03-2013, 10:38 PM
Don't worry Robert,
In other threads on this forum I wrote also about acts of bravery and "unstopable horses" of other cavalry types, including English Ironsides who defeated pikemen on several occasions during the English Civil War. Perhaps the most famous unit of heavy cavalry (cuirassiers) of the ECW were parliamentarian cuirassiers under Sir Arthur Haselrig (man famous for being repeatedly shot by muskets and pistols, stabbed by pikes, cut by swords - and surviving all of that). His cuirassiers charged and defeated pikemen in at least two battles:
- battle of Lansdowne on 5 July 1643, where his men defeated Sir Bevil Grenville's pikemen
- battle of Roundway Down on 13 July 1643
In both those battles Sir Arthur Haselrig was wounded, but not seriously.
As for trot / canter / gallop speed values - these are taken from description of charge of the Light Brigade.
And in 1578 at Gembloux 1,200 Spanish lancers defeated a Dutch army of 20,000 men.
PS: I actually never wrote about any "unstopable" horses. :grin:
I only wrote about horses which can be persuaded or forced or trained NOT to stop.
While some people mistakenly claim, that horses would stop no matter what.
================================================
BTW - while I support a view that horses can and do trample men, I never ever claimed that a charging unit is able to literally bulldoze through entire enemy formation which is many ranks deep - because it is rather obvious that a horse has not enough momentum and other things to do this. Even though horses can hit, trample or push, they would - at least in most cases (especially when attackers were not cataphracts or gendarmes) - not be able to literally bulldoze through entire enemy formations, like it is depicted in The Lord of the Rings film series. This is why repeated charges were usually necessary to break such formations. And horses of Polish hussars not only were clearly NOT unstopable, but were actually withdrawing after charge - and then repeating another charge. This is why cavalry units often charged many times during one battle.
At Klushino (1610) many squadrons of hussars charged enemy lines 8 or even 10 times:
Account of Samuel Maskiewicz - one of hussars who fought in squadron of prince Porycki at Klushino:
"(...) about this I shall remember, for it is beyond belief, that the squadrons managed eight or ten times to fall upon the enemy. (…) After these repeated charges and hand-to-hand fighting against the enemy, our equipment was broken and our strength was dissipated (…) The horses were also ready to drop from exhaustion, because they had not received sustenance since dawn and for five hours of battle, they had served with a great will but were reaching the limits which nature imposes (...)."
But the battle (5 hours long) was a victory for Polish cavalry against more numerous enemy forces which included both infantry (West European and Russian) and cavalry (Russian and West European).
Porycki's squadron - in which Samuel Maskiewicz served - lost actually just 5 men killed (out of 117) during the entire battle. Apart from men, of course also some horses were killed and many weapons broken - so overall losses of this squadron were bigger than just 5 killed men. And there were also wounded horses.
Some squadrons suffered higher losses - up to 20% wounded or dead (commander included) in the single most depleted one. Enemy losses were still much higher - also during the "combat phase" itself (before pursuit).
But more enemies were cut down after battle, during pursuit (as was the case in most historical battles).
Klushino or Kircholm are not just "Polish-Lithuanian exceptions".
For example Spanish victory at Gembloux in 1578 is equally if not more impressive.
=======================================
What about Seleucid cataphracts in the battle of Panium in 200 BC ???
They defeated Macedonian-style phalanx in that battle - not frontally (they charged from the rear), but still.
In the battle of Raphia - despite ultimate Seleucid defeat in this battle - cataphracts also performed well.
What about Parthian-Seleucid battles? In most cases we have only vague descriptions of what happened.
At Magnesia cataphracts and agema cavalry were the only Seleucid units which achieved success, charging and defeating at least one Allied Legion* and perhaps also one neighbouring actual Roman Legion.
*Latin Ala
In the battle of Zama during the Jugurthine War, Numidian cavalry were reported charging into Roman infantry lines (not skirmishing in their usual way) with considerable success, despite being light cavalry.
What about examples of confrontation between two opposing Ancient heavy cavalry forces?
At Tigranocerta Thracian and Gallic cavalry in Roman service defeated Armenian cataphracts. But was Thracian and Gallic cavalry heavy? I think it was medium, but it was a melee-mode cavalry, not skirmishers.
Are there any known clashes between Parthian and Seleucid heavy cavalry units?
.
In other threads on this forum I wrote also about acts of bravery and "unstopable horses" of other cavalry types, including English Ironsides who defeated pikemen on several occasions during the English Civil War. Perhaps the most famous unit of heavy cavalry (cuirassiers) of the ECW were parliamentarian cuirassiers under Sir Arthur Haselrig (man famous for being repeatedly shot by muskets and pistols, stabbed by pikes, cut by swords - and surviving all of that). His cuirassiers charged and defeated pikemen in at least two battles:
- battle of Lansdowne on 5 July 1643, where his men defeated Sir Bevil Grenville's pikemen
- battle of Roundway Down on 13 July 1643
In both those battles Sir Arthur Haselrig was wounded, but not seriously.
As for trot / canter / gallop speed values - these are taken from description of charge of the Light Brigade.
And in 1578 at Gembloux 1,200 Spanish lancers defeated a Dutch army of 20,000 men.
PS: I actually never wrote about any "unstopable" horses. :grin:
I only wrote about horses which can be persuaded or forced or trained NOT to stop.
While some people mistakenly claim, that horses would stop no matter what.
================================================
BTW - while I support a view that horses can and do trample men, I never ever claimed that a charging unit is able to literally bulldoze through entire enemy formation which is many ranks deep - because it is rather obvious that a horse has not enough momentum and other things to do this. Even though horses can hit, trample or push, they would - at least in most cases (especially when attackers were not cataphracts or gendarmes) - not be able to literally bulldoze through entire enemy formations, like it is depicted in The Lord of the Rings film series. This is why repeated charges were usually necessary to break such formations. And horses of Polish hussars not only were clearly NOT unstopable, but were actually withdrawing after charge - and then repeating another charge. This is why cavalry units often charged many times during one battle.
At Klushino (1610) many squadrons of hussars charged enemy lines 8 or even 10 times:
Account of Samuel Maskiewicz - one of hussars who fought in squadron of prince Porycki at Klushino:
"(...) about this I shall remember, for it is beyond belief, that the squadrons managed eight or ten times to fall upon the enemy. (…) After these repeated charges and hand-to-hand fighting against the enemy, our equipment was broken and our strength was dissipated (…) The horses were also ready to drop from exhaustion, because they had not received sustenance since dawn and for five hours of battle, they had served with a great will but were reaching the limits which nature imposes (...)."
But the battle (5 hours long) was a victory for Polish cavalry against more numerous enemy forces which included both infantry (West European and Russian) and cavalry (Russian and West European).
Porycki's squadron - in which Samuel Maskiewicz served - lost actually just 5 men killed (out of 117) during the entire battle. Apart from men, of course also some horses were killed and many weapons broken - so overall losses of this squadron were bigger than just 5 killed men. And there were also wounded horses.
Some squadrons suffered higher losses - up to 20% wounded or dead (commander included) in the single most depleted one. Enemy losses were still much higher - also during the "combat phase" itself (before pursuit).
But more enemies were cut down after battle, during pursuit (as was the case in most historical battles).
Klushino or Kircholm are not just "Polish-Lithuanian exceptions".
For example Spanish victory at Gembloux in 1578 is equally if not more impressive.
=======================================
What about Seleucid cataphracts in the battle of Panium in 200 BC ???
They defeated Macedonian-style phalanx in that battle - not frontally (they charged from the rear), but still.
In the battle of Raphia - despite ultimate Seleucid defeat in this battle - cataphracts also performed well.
What about Parthian-Seleucid battles? In most cases we have only vague descriptions of what happened.
At Magnesia cataphracts and agema cavalry were the only Seleucid units which achieved success, charging and defeating at least one Allied Legion* and perhaps also one neighbouring actual Roman Legion.
*Latin Ala
In the battle of Zama during the Jugurthine War, Numidian cavalry were reported charging into Roman infantry lines (not skirmishing in their usual way) with considerable success, despite being light cavalry.
What about examples of confrontation between two opposing Ancient heavy cavalry forces?
At Tigranocerta Thracian and Gallic cavalry in Roman service defeated Armenian cataphracts. But was Thracian and Gallic cavalry heavy? I think it was medium, but it was a melee-mode cavalry, not skirmishers.
Are there any known clashes between Parthian and Seleucid heavy cavalry units?
.
