08-20-2013, 11:54 AM
Does anybody know how to multiquote on this forum? Having to copy and paste every message and reply into one is quite cumbersome.
Wow, I'd really love to get my hands on those books by Selkirk. Shame they seem to be going for a fortune (for me anyway) on Amazon!
I do agree with your overall assessment. However, there are a few things I feel that, from an author's point of view, I would be able to "exploit", which I'll outline below.
The first is the general uncertainty we have (and in some cases downright total lack of evidence) regarding the bases of a lot of these "new style units" such as the Legio Comitatensis and the Auxilia Palatina. For example, the Notitia Dignitatum lists under the authority of the Dux Britanniarum a few units we know almost nothing of, such as the aforementioned Primani Iuniores (different from the Primani proper, which was another unit and an Auxilia Palatina not based in Britain) and for the Primani Iuniores we have no idea where they were based at. The Primani Secundani is also a mystery, another Legio Comitatensis which has been equated with the Secunda Britannica (based in Gaul) though again, they could have been totally different units and again, we have no idea where they were based, either.
The same can be said of the Victores Iuniores Britanniciani (an Auxilia Palatina unit) and also the Exculcatores iuniores Britanniciani, which may or may not be the same unit. The "Exculcatores" bit is interesting because it denotes a "lightly armed" function which may indicate it operated more as a reconnaissance or support unit, and I can think of few places better suited than close to the wall or the Saxon Shore for such operations to take place. To the list of units we don't know for certain what their base is, we could even add the Legio Praesidiensis, which though has been tentatively identified with Bridlington, this is by no means certain, as the Notitia Dignitatum states only "Praesidio" which means simply "Garrison" and thus it could have been based elsewhere, too.
So already, in addition to the "old" legions which we know of, there is this addition of quite a few which we know very little of. Granted, a few of those may have been created later, in the second half of the 4th century, but again, we're not too certain of that, either.
My second point is that given the turbulent history of Britain in the mid 4th century, as at 340-343 when Constans himself came with an army, and then 360 when Julian sent his Magister Equitum per Gallias Lupicinus over with four legions, and then again in 363-366 with some attacks culminating finally and dramatically in the "conspiratio barbarica" of 367-368, with Theodosius coming over with yet more Legions. Given the increased warfare, the constant coming and going of Legions, and these units popping up which we know little of, I don't think it would be outside of the bounds of reason to speculate maybe one or other of those were stationed closer to the wall than the "old" ones, simply because the wall in those turbulent 20-30 years was where all the action was happening, and it was clear the existing garrison plus the old legions were unable to handle what was going on effectively.
Given that Corbridge had two military compounds which we know still existed in the 4th century (what exactly they did though, as we've already discussed, is speculative however) and there also seems to have been a rather grand building with has been equated with the residing house and office of some rather important official, being quite palatial in nature and still in use by that time, I do believe it may have been possible Corbridge housed one of these "legions" which we know were no bigger than 500-1000 men, which Coria could have quite comfortably housed.
In sum, I believe the uncertainty, both on paper and on the ground, allow me the "artistic license" to put a legion there. It's certainly based on more evidence and more plausible than some of the stretches of historical accuracy I've seen certain authors indulge with their own titles. Or so I like to think, anyway :-)
Yes, though it is still very tentative at this stage, and I've only begun writing it. It will be a historical novel, fiction obviously, grounded in the year(s) and the events leading up to the Barbarian Conspiracy of 367-368, through the eyes of the prefect of one of the numerus on the wall.
Thanks guys, your input has been of tremendous help. It doesn't matter much what anyone (whether Old Norse or Anglo-Saxon) called it after the Romans, because they are outside the period I wish to portray, though they are by no means uninteresting.
I think I'm going to stick with Via Militaris and "North Road" for the reasons I've mentioned in my previous post. If history doesn't know what they were called, I can't be abused for coming up with my own names!
Quote:MARCVS.
Here is a picture of Roman roads in the area of Corbridge and the Tyne Valley that shows how roads leave Ebchester, the Dere Street going via Bywell to cross the Tyne and not at Corbridge.
There is also the Stanegate leaving Corbridge and going east to Bywell it does of course go much further east than that, there is also the frontier discovered by the late Raymond Selkirk known as his 255 line which pre-dates Hadrians Wall and this goes from coast to coast -Whitley Bay to Maryport in Cumbria- with fortlets every mile with also larger forts very similar to just what Hadrian decided at a later date.
Wow, I'd really love to get my hands on those books by Selkirk. Shame they seem to be going for a fortune (for me anyway) on Amazon!
Quote:The only legion in the vicinity during the fourth century was probably the old Sixth Victrix based at York. The Twentieth seem to have vanished at some point in the late third century (Caurausius/Allectus revolt, perhaps?), and the Second were confined to the south, based first (according to Nick Fuentes) at London and then on the Channel coast.
II Britannica almost certainly date from the Constantinian reorganisation of the field army in Gaul. They may have been formed from vexillations of one or both legions from Britain, but there's not much to suggest they ever went back there. The other two you mentioned were probably similar - they were smaller-sized 'new' legions, so wouldn't have had the manpower to be sending detachments out to the frontiers.
Corbridge was, as you say, a supply depot and probably had a very limited garrison - maybe a couple of centuries of the legion from York, of from a neighbouring auxiliary unit, to guard the armouries and stores. The wall garrison seems to have become very depleted in the third century, and while there's some evidence of recovery in the early fourth, it probably never returned to being the sort of force that would need a strategic reserve at Corbridge - York, if anywhere, would function as that.
I do agree with your overall assessment. However, there are a few things I feel that, from an author's point of view, I would be able to "exploit", which I'll outline below.
The first is the general uncertainty we have (and in some cases downright total lack of evidence) regarding the bases of a lot of these "new style units" such as the Legio Comitatensis and the Auxilia Palatina. For example, the Notitia Dignitatum lists under the authority of the Dux Britanniarum a few units we know almost nothing of, such as the aforementioned Primani Iuniores (different from the Primani proper, which was another unit and an Auxilia Palatina not based in Britain) and for the Primani Iuniores we have no idea where they were based at. The Primani Secundani is also a mystery, another Legio Comitatensis which has been equated with the Secunda Britannica (based in Gaul) though again, they could have been totally different units and again, we have no idea where they were based, either.
The same can be said of the Victores Iuniores Britanniciani (an Auxilia Palatina unit) and also the Exculcatores iuniores Britanniciani, which may or may not be the same unit. The "Exculcatores" bit is interesting because it denotes a "lightly armed" function which may indicate it operated more as a reconnaissance or support unit, and I can think of few places better suited than close to the wall or the Saxon Shore for such operations to take place. To the list of units we don't know for certain what their base is, we could even add the Legio Praesidiensis, which though has been tentatively identified with Bridlington, this is by no means certain, as the Notitia Dignitatum states only "Praesidio" which means simply "Garrison" and thus it could have been based elsewhere, too.
So already, in addition to the "old" legions which we know of, there is this addition of quite a few which we know very little of. Granted, a few of those may have been created later, in the second half of the 4th century, but again, we're not too certain of that, either.
My second point is that given the turbulent history of Britain in the mid 4th century, as at 340-343 when Constans himself came with an army, and then 360 when Julian sent his Magister Equitum per Gallias Lupicinus over with four legions, and then again in 363-366 with some attacks culminating finally and dramatically in the "conspiratio barbarica" of 367-368, with Theodosius coming over with yet more Legions. Given the increased warfare, the constant coming and going of Legions, and these units popping up which we know little of, I don't think it would be outside of the bounds of reason to speculate maybe one or other of those were stationed closer to the wall than the "old" ones, simply because the wall in those turbulent 20-30 years was where all the action was happening, and it was clear the existing garrison plus the old legions were unable to handle what was going on effectively.
Given that Corbridge had two military compounds which we know still existed in the 4th century (what exactly they did though, as we've already discussed, is speculative however) and there also seems to have been a rather grand building with has been equated with the residing house and office of some rather important official, being quite palatial in nature and still in use by that time, I do believe it may have been possible Corbridge housed one of these "legions" which we know were no bigger than 500-1000 men, which Coria could have quite comfortably housed.
In sum, I believe the uncertainty, both on paper and on the ground, allow me the "artistic license" to put a legion there. It's certainly based on more evidence and more plausible than some of the stretches of historical accuracy I've seen certain authors indulge with their own titles. Or so I like to think, anyway :-)
Quote:You mentioned you were thinking of this in relation to a book, by the way - could you perhaps say more about what you have in mind?
Yes, though it is still very tentative at this stage, and I've only begun writing it. It will be a historical novel, fiction obviously, grounded in the year(s) and the events leading up to the Barbarian Conspiracy of 367-368, through the eyes of the prefect of one of the numerus on the wall.
Quote:Gate meaning road is of Old Norse rather than Old English origin. The Anglo-Saxons used a derivitive of the Latin strata - hence street, or[i] rad[/i] (long 'a' sound) ancestral to road.
Quote:Martin.
I think we could go on for ages discussing the origins of language however the question of the topic was what did the Romans call these two roads, so therefore not to go OT I would prefer to stay with the topic and not hijack what could be an interesting subject.
Thanks guys, your input has been of tremendous help. It doesn't matter much what anyone (whether Old Norse or Anglo-Saxon) called it after the Romans, because they are outside the period I wish to portray, though they are by no means uninteresting.
I think I'm going to stick with Via Militaris and "North Road" for the reasons I've mentioned in my previous post. If history doesn't know what they were called, I can't be abused for coming up with my own names!
