08-08-2013, 01:41 PM
Mark,
Your little 'thought piece' was interesting, but a big question intrudes.......you obviously don't think that the Roman century operated in 'semi-fixed' files of sections/contubernia and that you can happily muck about with internal structures at whim to move men about to your current desire?
Feel free to rip my narrative apart. I put it out there, I should be able to defend everything in it. In term of the semi-fixed files, I am not sold on the idea that they were fixed or even subunits. Mucking with the internal structure of your own unit is a time renown right of commanders. What's the point of being a centurion if you can't even decide where to place your men? Was micromanaging as popular in ancient times as it is today?
I am a believer of the school of thought that the Roman legions, especially during the Republican era, weren't a well drilled war machine. They were a militia army of hardened farmers who brought their own equipment and went off to war to earn a reputation as a warrior (virtus), kill the enemy, and earn some money in the form of pillaged loot. Most were illiterate, most legions weren't seriously trained or drilled it seems, and those that were were usually armies that had performed badly before and were taken over by a more competent commander who wanted to beat them into shape. I am not the only one who believes this, either, it seems to be a pretty popular idea according to many authors. What we seem to be experiencing is comparable to the Othismos debate within the Greek history purview. The ancient sources aren't clear enough so the debate is technically not possible to prove 100%. The only thing you can do is show reasoning behind your theories. I've done that but may have done it poorly.
And you would have been happy to be treated like that? For I think Sempronius/Adam is absolutely right - that dovetails with exactly my own experiences and I don't see the Romans as fundamentally different at all. The absolute situation may be a bit different, but 'man' hasn't evolved at all in about 10,000 years - and the harsh discipline of Rome is not that far removed from 18th & 19th century army discipline.
Heck no I wouldn't want to have been treated like that. But at the same time, I am a wimpy American that grew up in the culture of be nice to everyone and political correctness. If you taught me proper Latin and stuck me in a time machine and dropped me off in Ancient Rome, I doubt I'd last a day or two before I was killed. And I consider myself a capable person. But I am not Roman and they were a much "hardier" people. When I grew up, my father didn't throw away unwanted siblings because he didn't feel like feeding them. I didn't have a slave working my land for me, preparing my food. Also, Dad didn't legally murder my mother because she was unfaithful. And when I served in the military, if I fell asleep on guard duty, I wasn't beaten to death the next morning by my squad mates. During battles, I wasn't expected to murder unarmed men, women and children and to capture the rest to sell as slaves. I didn't spend the better part of three days drunk and doing whatever I wanted after taking control of an enemy held city. I wasn't even able to bring any loot home from Iraq, think how disappointing that was! Humans from 10,000 years ago and today are genetically pretty much still the same but modern humans, especially westerners such as Americans and British, are completely different culturally than the Romans were or to put our cultural identity, whether morally or militarily, on them is wrong and is bad historiography in my opinion.
Below is a picture from Lendon's Soldiers and Ghosts. It illustrates a possibility of how maniples were formed during the Republican era. Find me a source that says it could not have happened that way. I looked and couldn't.
[attachment=7761]SoldiersandGhostManiple.png[/attachment]
Your little 'thought piece' was interesting, but a big question intrudes.......you obviously don't think that the Roman century operated in 'semi-fixed' files of sections/contubernia and that you can happily muck about with internal structures at whim to move men about to your current desire?
Feel free to rip my narrative apart. I put it out there, I should be able to defend everything in it. In term of the semi-fixed files, I am not sold on the idea that they were fixed or even subunits. Mucking with the internal structure of your own unit is a time renown right of commanders. What's the point of being a centurion if you can't even decide where to place your men? Was micromanaging as popular in ancient times as it is today?
I am a believer of the school of thought that the Roman legions, especially during the Republican era, weren't a well drilled war machine. They were a militia army of hardened farmers who brought their own equipment and went off to war to earn a reputation as a warrior (virtus), kill the enemy, and earn some money in the form of pillaged loot. Most were illiterate, most legions weren't seriously trained or drilled it seems, and those that were were usually armies that had performed badly before and were taken over by a more competent commander who wanted to beat them into shape. I am not the only one who believes this, either, it seems to be a pretty popular idea according to many authors. What we seem to be experiencing is comparable to the Othismos debate within the Greek history purview. The ancient sources aren't clear enough so the debate is technically not possible to prove 100%. The only thing you can do is show reasoning behind your theories. I've done that but may have done it poorly.
And you would have been happy to be treated like that? For I think Sempronius/Adam is absolutely right - that dovetails with exactly my own experiences and I don't see the Romans as fundamentally different at all. The absolute situation may be a bit different, but 'man' hasn't evolved at all in about 10,000 years - and the harsh discipline of Rome is not that far removed from 18th & 19th century army discipline.
Heck no I wouldn't want to have been treated like that. But at the same time, I am a wimpy American that grew up in the culture of be nice to everyone and political correctness. If you taught me proper Latin and stuck me in a time machine and dropped me off in Ancient Rome, I doubt I'd last a day or two before I was killed. And I consider myself a capable person. But I am not Roman and they were a much "hardier" people. When I grew up, my father didn't throw away unwanted siblings because he didn't feel like feeding them. I didn't have a slave working my land for me, preparing my food. Also, Dad didn't legally murder my mother because she was unfaithful. And when I served in the military, if I fell asleep on guard duty, I wasn't beaten to death the next morning by my squad mates. During battles, I wasn't expected to murder unarmed men, women and children and to capture the rest to sell as slaves. I didn't spend the better part of three days drunk and doing whatever I wanted after taking control of an enemy held city. I wasn't even able to bring any loot home from Iraq, think how disappointing that was! Humans from 10,000 years ago and today are genetically pretty much still the same but modern humans, especially westerners such as Americans and British, are completely different culturally than the Romans were or to put our cultural identity, whether morally or militarily, on them is wrong and is bad historiography in my opinion.
Below is a picture from Lendon's Soldiers and Ghosts. It illustrates a possibility of how maniples were formed during the Republican era. Find me a source that says it could not have happened that way. I looked and couldn't.
[attachment=7761]SoldiersandGhostManiple.png[/attachment]
