06-01-2013, 11:29 AM
antiochus,
Indeed - "retire" was a word I used, because it had been used - 'tactical withdrawal' with firm intentions of re-engagement after I have done what I need to do first, is most likely.
I am glad you also agree with the point about charging cavalry - I can only assume that my challenge has gone unanswered in that other thread, because it would be nigh on impossible to do so. Not only would it be illogical, it would border on irrational. It does make a very important point for me, however: Macedon's contention is that the sources (and here I will concentrate on Asclepiodotus) state that the cavalry also fought in file and that, in my case, the Decurion would be leading the file and not the rank. But Ascl doesn't state that - it has been read into it by Macedon and others - I'm sure he's not alone. It's simply that the sources do not say everything and for some things we have to interpret, interpolate and sometimes even guess!
As with this infantry discussion. I have never researched it - I may well now do so. It actually never occurred to me to do so and, whilst I am happily not more than 95% convinced I am still right, I am very surprised that the discussion is as heated as it is - for fighting in any other way genuinely seems silly to me.
When it comes to 'directing unit' - I was referring to your example - there is no need, I feel, for the Roman legion deployment and tactics to require a directing unit. Alexander indeed, in that scenario, has completely given up the powers of command (commanders 'direct') in order to lead his troops - his other cavalry is simply following his lead and supporting him. Given his troops obvious love and commitment to him and admiration as a leader this is a bold and, we know, often successful tactic - but it is dangerous and rather risky.
I also, btw, don't believe centurions commonly fought in the front rank, because you cannot exercise command whilst fighting - to do so is when the situation demands a leadership example and is only less of an occurrence than throwing the standard in.
Bryan,
Understood - but merely throwing out names of writers doesn't help. I will not be surprised to discover that none of them may describe what we are seeking. If you have read them and have the detailed reference(s), then that's where we can start next time.
I'm afraid I certainly don't agree with your ideas on the invincibility of the Roman soldier in his 6ft bubble and I am sure you misunderstand the power of the cohesive century within the maniple in their 'shieldwall' - if that's the right term.
So - until later (maybe :wink: ) for me - and there is only one source I serious question and consider for possible dismissal - and it's not Polybius. Thesis time.....
Indeed - "retire" was a word I used, because it had been used - 'tactical withdrawal' with firm intentions of re-engagement after I have done what I need to do first, is most likely.
I am glad you also agree with the point about charging cavalry - I can only assume that my challenge has gone unanswered in that other thread, because it would be nigh on impossible to do so. Not only would it be illogical, it would border on irrational. It does make a very important point for me, however: Macedon's contention is that the sources (and here I will concentrate on Asclepiodotus) state that the cavalry also fought in file and that, in my case, the Decurion would be leading the file and not the rank. But Ascl doesn't state that - it has been read into it by Macedon and others - I'm sure he's not alone. It's simply that the sources do not say everything and for some things we have to interpret, interpolate and sometimes even guess!
As with this infantry discussion. I have never researched it - I may well now do so. It actually never occurred to me to do so and, whilst I am happily not more than 95% convinced I am still right, I am very surprised that the discussion is as heated as it is - for fighting in any other way genuinely seems silly to me.
When it comes to 'directing unit' - I was referring to your example - there is no need, I feel, for the Roman legion deployment and tactics to require a directing unit. Alexander indeed, in that scenario, has completely given up the powers of command (commanders 'direct') in order to lead his troops - his other cavalry is simply following his lead and supporting him. Given his troops obvious love and commitment to him and admiration as a leader this is a bold and, we know, often successful tactic - but it is dangerous and rather risky.
I also, btw, don't believe centurions commonly fought in the front rank, because you cannot exercise command whilst fighting - to do so is when the situation demands a leadership example and is only less of an occurrence than throwing the standard in.
Bryan,
Understood - but merely throwing out names of writers doesn't help. I will not be surprised to discover that none of them may describe what we are seeking. If you have read them and have the detailed reference(s), then that's where we can start next time.
I'm afraid I certainly don't agree with your ideas on the invincibility of the Roman soldier in his 6ft bubble and I am sure you misunderstand the power of the cohesive century within the maniple in their 'shieldwall' - if that's the right term.
So - until later (maybe :wink: ) for me - and there is only one source I serious question and consider for possible dismissal - and it's not Polybius. Thesis time.....
