05-22-2013, 08:04 PM
Sorry it took so long to reply, this new website format is not really working all that well for me.
Mark Hygate Wrote:
Considering the soldiers...fighting at any distance from each other than shoulder-to-shoulder...makes no sense - that's how the Hoplites did it, the Pike Phalanx and then the Romans. The Romans, though, instead of taking the Spear to the extreme of the Pike, took the Shield to the maximum width - and then used it as the primary 'weapon', creating gaps through which to stab. At any further than one-pace between soldier-centres then gaps would open up - hence the choice.
"Now in the case of the Romans also each soldier with his arms occupies a space of three feet in breadth, but as in their mode of fighting each man must move
separately, as he has to cover his person with his long shield, turning to meet each expected blow, and as he uses his sword both for cutting and thrusting it is obvious that a looser order is required, and each man must be at a distance of at least three feet from the man next him in the same rank and those in front of and behind him, if they are to be of proper use." Polybius 18.30
The deployed depth of a hastati/principes century/maniple would be 8 - a full contuburnium, the first six as expected and the last two from the Velites. It's the last two that would move through and back, or throwing over the top, or be off brigaded doing something else, or dealing with the injured (both friend and foe) - a whole other discussion.
Other than Vegetius, what other ancient sources reveals the files of Republican era maniples were made up of contubernales? Also, what source do you have that the maniples of the Republican army fought 8 ranks deep? Or 6 Ranks? At what battle? Under which General?
In addition, whilst my original picture shows gaps between the maniples for clarity - I do believe the shield-to-shield would extend all along the line - otherwise it shows points of potential weakness.
"For every Roman soldier, once he is armed and sets about his business, can adapt himself equally well to every place and time and can meet attack from every quarter. He is likewise equally prepared and equally in condition whether he has to fight together with the whole army or with a part of it or in maniples or singly." P 18:31
Again, why would a man armed in a manner to fight as in individual, with a curved scutum and 25-27" long sword, want to be shield to shield with anyone else, and thus restrict his movement, per Polybius and Caesar?
What potential weakness in the Roman line was there to exploit? Please discuss how a Macedonian phalanx will exploit the gap between Roman or Socii maniples without risking the collapse of its own line.
You seem pretty knowledgeable about the dimensions of the Roman camp, as described by Polybius, whereas I am more or less ignorant of it. But how wide was the gate they marched out of? How many men walking abreast could pass through it at a time?
Mark Hygate Wrote:
Considering the soldiers...fighting at any distance from each other than shoulder-to-shoulder...makes no sense - that's how the Hoplites did it, the Pike Phalanx and then the Romans. The Romans, though, instead of taking the Spear to the extreme of the Pike, took the Shield to the maximum width - and then used it as the primary 'weapon', creating gaps through which to stab. At any further than one-pace between soldier-centres then gaps would open up - hence the choice.
"Now in the case of the Romans also each soldier with his arms occupies a space of three feet in breadth, but as in their mode of fighting each man must move
separately, as he has to cover his person with his long shield, turning to meet each expected blow, and as he uses his sword both for cutting and thrusting it is obvious that a looser order is required, and each man must be at a distance of at least three feet from the man next him in the same rank and those in front of and behind him, if they are to be of proper use." Polybius 18.30
The deployed depth of a hastati/principes century/maniple would be 8 - a full contuburnium, the first six as expected and the last two from the Velites. It's the last two that would move through and back, or throwing over the top, or be off brigaded doing something else, or dealing with the injured (both friend and foe) - a whole other discussion.
Other than Vegetius, what other ancient sources reveals the files of Republican era maniples were made up of contubernales? Also, what source do you have that the maniples of the Republican army fought 8 ranks deep? Or 6 Ranks? At what battle? Under which General?
In addition, whilst my original picture shows gaps between the maniples for clarity - I do believe the shield-to-shield would extend all along the line - otherwise it shows points of potential weakness.
"For every Roman soldier, once he is armed and sets about his business, can adapt himself equally well to every place and time and can meet attack from every quarter. He is likewise equally prepared and equally in condition whether he has to fight together with the whole army or with a part of it or in maniples or singly." P 18:31
Again, why would a man armed in a manner to fight as in individual, with a curved scutum and 25-27" long sword, want to be shield to shield with anyone else, and thus restrict his movement, per Polybius and Caesar?
What potential weakness in the Roman line was there to exploit? Please discuss how a Macedonian phalanx will exploit the gap between Roman or Socii maniples without risking the collapse of its own line.
You seem pretty knowledgeable about the dimensions of the Roman camp, as described by Polybius, whereas I am more or less ignorant of it. But how wide was the gate they marched out of? How many men walking abreast could pass through it at a time?
