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Cavalry and chariots against infantry
Quote:And no, I don't know why archery succeeded at Carrhae and failed at Gaugemala. None of us do.

I know.

Most importantly - because Carrhae was a very long battle, which lasted for many days and de facto was not one but a series of nearly constant clashes (and that's why the Parthians had plenty of time to shoot at the Romans - as well as to charge them, because let's remember that apart from 9,000 horse archers, there were 1,000 cataphracts who also killed many of Roman infantry and horsemen).

Secondly - the Parthians had practically unlimited number of arrows, thanks to having 1000 pack-mules fully loaded with arrows (and each such a mule could carry hundreds of arrows).

Thirdly - because they used special bows and arrowheads, read this article please:

http://www.casematepublishing.com/dlc/97...033892.pdf


Quote:I think we're talking about, at most four thousand Gothic cavalry, and substantially more Gothic infantry, against at least ten thousand Roman infantry.

The Roman army at Adrianople had at least (according to Osprey's "Adrianople"):

Infantry:

Scholae - 1500
Legiones palatinae - 5000
Auxilia palatinae - 6000

Cavalry:

Equites palatinae - 1000
Equites comitatenses - 1500

So in total this gives 15,000 men.

According to another book ("Adrianople - Frigidus" from Polish "Historical Battles" series by Bellona, written by Daniel Gazda) the Roman army at Adrianople was even bigger than 15,000.

According to Gazda, the Roman army brought by Valens with him to Adrianople (which included his personal guard) numbered 15,000 - 17,000 men.

But - according to this book - these 15,000 - 17,000 men were reinforced by operational group of Sebastianus (ca. 2,000 - 3,000 men), part of the field army of Thrace (of undefined strength) and some unit of the Germanic Batavi, under command of Richomeres.

In total Gazda estimates this army as "at the very most 30,000 - that is around 20% of all forces of the eastern part of the Empire". But "at the very most" - so it could be in fact anything between 20,000 and 30,000 (after adding units from Thrace, Sebastianus and Richomeres).

Perhaps indeed it was much closer to 20,000 than to 30,000.

Regarding the Gothic army:

We know that the main part of the Gothic army were the tribes of the Thervingi (living to the north-east of the Danube river before) and the Greuthungi (who lived in steppe areas located more to the east than areas inhabited by the Thervingi). Apart from this the Gothic army was reinforced by the nomadic tribes of the Huns, the Alans and the Taifals, by Gothic units from the Roman army, by fugitive Roman slaves, prisoners of war liberated from Roman captivity, deserters from the Roman army and some number of miners from local gold mines, "who could no longer sustain the heavy burden of Roman taxes".

The Gothic army included men between ca. 15 years old and ca. 50 - 60 years old.

We know that the Greuthungi, the Huns, the Taifals and the Alans fielded almost only cavalry (but of these three, the largest proportion of infantry - if indeed any took part in the battle - had to be among the Greuthungi - and if there was such infantry deployed by them in the actual battle, then it was mostly skirmish infantry and archers). Vast majority of the Greuthungi cavalry was shock cavalry armed with melee spears, swords and large oval shields, rather than skirmish cavalry.

The Alan army consisted primarly of heavy shock cavalry. The difference between the Greuthungi cavalry and the Alan cavalry was its heaviness - the Greuthungi cavalry was using shock charges and was armed with spears, but most of their troops wore no metal armor - they had their large, oval shields though - while Alan horsemen were usually armored, and also shock cavalry.

Regarding the Thervingi - historians assume, that they had more infantry than cavalry.

Both Gothic tribes were considered as excellent in using spears in combat.

Other men such as fugitive slaves and gold miners were surely footmen, but they don't deserve to be called "infantry" or "soldiers" - they were a rabble, that maybe added some numbers to the overall strength of Gothic foot forces, but they did not add much of combat value.

=======================================

All in all the Gothic army can be estimated as (basing mostly on Ammianus):

Thervingi:

- ca. 8000 infantry (including perhaps all those fugitive slaves, miners, etc.)
- ca. 1000+ foot archers and skirmishers (maybe also some missile cavalry among them)
- ca. 1000 "heavy" shock cavalry
- ca. 800 Roman-Gothic troops of Colias and Sueridas (perhaps infantry, but it is not certain)

Greuthungi:

- most likely ca. 4000 "heavy" shock cavalry
- ca. 500+ light missile cavalry

Maybe the Greuthungi also fielded some infantry (but Ammianus doesn't say).

The Huns, the Alans and the Taifals:

- most likely ca. 2500 cavalry

In total the barbarian army at Adrianople probably included:

- ca. 9000 melee-oriented infantry (including perhaps all those fugitive slaves, miners, etc.)
- ca. 1500 Gothic missile-oriented troops (infantry and cavalry)
- ca. 5000 Gothic shock, melee-oriented cavalry

- ca. 2500 of the Huns, the Alans and the Taifals cavalry (of them the Alans and the Taifals were mostly heavy shock cavalry, while the Huns were perhaps mostly horse archers)

In total perhaps some 18,000 - 20,000 troops.

And perhaps at least 40% of that barbarian army was cavalry.


Messages In This Thread
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 08:46 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 08:57 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 10:39 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 01:31 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-18-2013, 03:08 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Lyceum - 02-18-2013, 03:56 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Lyceum - 02-18-2013, 04:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 02:43 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 03:09 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 03:22 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-19-2013, 03:20 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 10:52 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-19-2013, 11:00 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 11:09 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Bryan - 02-20-2013, 01:10 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 01:58 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 02:58 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 03:28 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-20-2013, 03:43 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 03:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 04:17 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Tim - 02-20-2013, 04:27 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 04:13 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 10:03 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 06:13 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 07:00 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-21-2013, 03:45 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 11:28 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 12:34 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 01:29 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 02:27 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 03:26 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 03:33 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:11 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:45 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:18 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:32 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:50 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 07:52 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:52 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:19 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 08:06 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 01:36 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 03:19 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 04:46 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 05:06 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:09 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:17 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:46 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:50 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 03:06 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 11:14 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-24-2013, 04:38 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 05:04 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 06:35 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 07:55 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-24-2013, 04:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-24-2013, 05:15 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-24-2013, 08:28 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 09:41 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 09:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-25-2013, 01:30 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Frank - 02-25-2013, 02:55 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Frank - 02-25-2013, 03:05 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-25-2013, 03:22 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-25-2013, 03:50 AM

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