Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Cavalry and chariots against infantry
#87
Quote:I tried to find primary sources on this battle

You might look in Swedish sources. This battle was the single bloodiest military disaster in entire Swedish history, with some 7,000 or more Swedish soldiers being killed in one day. About Swedish casualties in the battle of Kircholm writes a researcher from Sweden (nick Adar) on another forum:

And also something interesting regarding attempts of Swedish cavalry to use shock tactics:


Quote:
arkeologen Wrote:At Kircholm there were 10,368 Swedes, out of whom 3,948 has been confirmed as killed in the battle.
The 10 368 soldiers at the start of battle I agree with (and Perkele explained how). The 3 948 dead Swedes is however incorrect as a casuality figure for the battle. I know for a fact that there are no complete records of the Swedish casuality figures for Kircholm. I do not have the numbers infront of me (they can be found in Manckell Svenska Kriegsmacktens historia and Kongl. Svea Livgardes historia uses the numbers from Manckell) but I am quite certain that 3 948 casualities is reached by only adding the casualities from the regiments that the administration registered. The Swedish records are incomplete becuase only the casualities of some regiments where registered. We do not know why (possibly Charles IX trying to limit the impact of the loss) but the Swedish administration stopped counting the remaining strength after counting a little bit more than half the regiments.

There are however alternative ways to calculate the losses. The citizens of Riga paid for the funeral of all the dead soldiers in the battle and they paid for 8300 buried soldiers. If the average losses of the counted Swedish regiments are applied to the other ones I think you get roughly 7000 Swedish soldiers being lost. It is however stated that they most likely are higher than this since the most destroyed regiments most likely were not counted. Radoslaw have however mentioned that he think camp servants being present in the Polish battle lines, boosting the numbers to something slightly above 5000 soldiers IIRC. I think he also have mentioned suspicions about the number of Polish losses (them being a bit higher) but I think we need to wait for him to get those numbers.

(...)

I also originally thought that Sweden learned cavalry tactics from the Polish. Radek however told me that they were most likely imported from the French hugenotts. It should also be noted that Karl Karlsson Gyllenhielm attempted gallop charges even in 1601 in order to limit the effect of the Hussars superior mobility and skill. The tactic failed with his untrained soldiers but it shows that the old tactics of a cold steel charge were known even before the Gustavian reforms.

Swedish history sadly have a tendency to magically teleport Gustav II Adolf into northern Germany. This is a very bad way of describing his reign considering that he spent 18 years fighting Poland, Russian and Denmark before venturing into Germany (and died after 2 years). The reason that he is such a significant character in Swedish history is actually his almost complete reforms of both the military and civilian administration. This turned Sweden from a very minor regional power into the most powerful state in northern Europe. Swedens victory in the 30 years war should really be attributed to Axel Oxenstierna, Johan Banér and Lennart Torstensson.

Also please note that I am Swedish so I have no reason to participate in unwarranted Polish nationalism. This period was however a period where the Polish army dominated the open field and I think Domens summary correctly reflect this.

Quote:I have vacations right now, so I can't check my sources and I can't give you exact numbers. Anyway, Lithuanian-Polish army at Kircholm lost some 100 killed soldiers. Apart from roughly 3700 soldiers in L-P army, there were armed servants (I estimate their number at 5000). Most of them defended the camp, but some of them fought in the open field and chased (plundered) smashed Swedes. Casualties of L-P armed servants are unknown.

The number of 8300 buried corps is very interesting information (more about it you can find in prof. Robert I. Frost book 'The Northern Wars'), but it can't be directly transformed to casualties of Swedish soldiers. Why? Because some of these buried corps could be Polish armed servants, Swedish camp followers (I think bulk of them stayed in Swedish camp at Riga, but it is possible that some of them accompanied Swedish army to Kircholm) and peasents from neighbourhood of Kircholm.

=======================================================

So ca. 8300 men died in that battle (in the battle itself, and in the subsequent chase). Of them Lithuanian-Polish soldiers were ca. 100 killed. And the remaining ca. 8200 of the dead were: Swedish soldiers, local peasants ("collateral damage" perhaps) and Lithuanian-Polish camp servants.


Messages In This Thread
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 08:46 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 08:57 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 10:39 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 01:31 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-18-2013, 03:08 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Lyceum - 02-18-2013, 03:56 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Lyceum - 02-18-2013, 04:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 02:43 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 03:09 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 03:22 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-19-2013, 03:20 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 10:52 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-19-2013, 11:00 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 11:09 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Bryan - 02-20-2013, 01:10 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 01:58 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 02:58 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 03:28 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-20-2013, 03:43 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 03:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 04:17 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Tim - 02-20-2013, 04:27 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 04:13 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 10:03 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 06:13 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 07:00 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-21-2013, 03:45 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 11:28 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 12:34 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 01:29 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 02:27 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 03:26 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 03:33 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:11 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:45 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:18 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:32 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:50 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 07:52 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:52 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:19 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 08:06 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 01:36 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 03:19 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 04:46 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 05:06 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:09 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:17 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:46 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:50 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 03:06 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 11:14 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-24-2013, 04:38 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 05:04 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 06:35 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 07:55 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-24-2013, 04:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-24-2013, 05:15 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-24-2013, 08:28 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 09:41 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 09:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-25-2013, 01:30 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Frank - 02-25-2013, 02:55 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Frank - 02-25-2013, 03:05 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-25-2013, 03:22 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-25-2013, 03:50 AM

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Cavalry & chariots as missiles to crush infantry Domen 14 4,212 02-26-2013, 03:01 AM
Last Post: Macedon
  Distance marching rates, infantry v cavalry Nathan Ross 41 14,317 10-12-2012, 08:07 PM
Last Post: ParthianBow
  Casualty Rates : Infantry vs. Cavalry Theodosius the Great 10 3,558 08-05-2008, 12:18 PM
Last Post: Scipio Bristolus

Forum Jump: