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Cavalry and chariots against infantry
#71
Quote:Do you have a larger picture? I can't quite read all of the text.

Sorry for that. I'll try to find a larger picture.

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Quote:Okay, so a solid wall of people isn't solid enough to stop a horse. and if so, then locked shields won't stop a horse. I think it does depend on the spears to stop the horses.

Some later Byzantine manuals describe the use of menavlia (?) or very sturdy spears to stop a charge. Eric McGreer discusses this in *Sowing the Dragon's Teeth.* If I remember correctly, the first technique placed a single row of infantry with menavlia (?) at some distance from the main body, but gradually the number of infantry with the weapons increased and they were to put themselves immediately before the first rank of the other infantry.

I still think infantry had the advantage in a frontal fight, and was at a disadvantage otherwise, but I guess we have ruled out a lot of the speculation.

Long time ago my friend - when he was still young and stupid (or is it called "brave", maybe? - plus he was also a bit drunk) -, during a historical reenactment of an Early Medieval battle, charged (without any weapons or armor or his own shield) such a solid shield wall of reenactors with shields and in mail armors. And while he rammed it with his left shoulder - but also with entire body, as he literally jumped / smashed into those shields (at a really high speed) - one of reenactors who was part of the shield wall, pushed him with his shield (in the very same moment when he hit the shield running at high speed, he was also pushed / hit by that shield). He was not even knocked over on the ground, nor he lost consciousness - he managed to land on his feet (but I must admit that he is a rather hunky guy, so hard to knock over). The only injury he suffered, was a cut (and thus bleeding) eybrow ridge. But that injury was dressed in a matter of minutes, and apart from that he was all fine (maybe he had some negligible bruises).

So I suppose, that if a shield wall cannot seriously injure a charging man (at a high speed), it all the more cannot seriously injure a charging battle horse. Thus - yes - a horse had to be injured by an accurate spear thrust (or other weapon), not by the sole impact of the collision.

On the other hand - a horse is much heavier than my friend. My friend had maybe 95 kg, a horse is much heavier (many of large Medieval combat horses had more than 750 kg, up to even 1200 kg, average modern adult horses are 550 - 650 kg). They can also run somehow slightly (at least) faster than even the fastest of human beings. So - an impact of a collision with such a horse would be much more devastating for the guy holding that shield, than an impact of a collision with my friend was.

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Sorry for not replying to all issues in posts above - but I'm quite short on time - so I selected just some excerpts and replied to them. I promise I will reply to other parts of the OPs in question later. Wink


Messages In This Thread
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 08:46 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 08:57 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-17-2013, 10:39 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 01:31 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-18-2013, 03:08 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Lyceum - 02-18-2013, 03:56 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Lyceum - 02-18-2013, 04:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 02:43 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-18-2013, 03:09 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 03:22 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-19-2013, 03:20 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 10:52 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-19-2013, 11:00 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-19-2013, 11:09 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Bryan - 02-20-2013, 01:10 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 01:58 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 02:58 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 03:28 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-20-2013, 03:43 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 03:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 04:17 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Tim - 02-20-2013, 04:27 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 04:13 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-20-2013, 10:03 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 06:13 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 07:00 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-21-2013, 03:45 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-21-2013, 11:28 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 12:34 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 01:29 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 02:27 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 03:26 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 03:33 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:11 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:45 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:48 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:18 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:32 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:50 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 07:52 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 04:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 05:52 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 06:19 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 08:06 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 01:36 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 03:19 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 04:46 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 05:06 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:09 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:17 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:46 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 06:50 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 03:06 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-23-2013, 11:14 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-24-2013, 04:38 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 05:04 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 06:35 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 07:55 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-24-2013, 04:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by eduard - 02-24-2013, 05:15 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Robert - 02-24-2013, 08:28 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 09:41 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-24-2013, 09:56 PM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-25-2013, 01:30 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Frank - 02-25-2013, 02:55 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Frank - 02-25-2013, 03:05 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Peter - 02-25-2013, 03:22 AM
Cavalry and chariots against infantry - by Vindex - 02-25-2013, 03:50 AM

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