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The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy?
#35
Quote:Back to the subject at hand:
Both Sabinus and Fuscus were killed by ambush and as for Alaude, they perished in with Fuscus.

Hmm, from where do you get this ambush part? Sabinus was killed during battles in Roman province Moesia, and Fuscus was maybe "surprised" by the arrangement of Dacian battle formations, because is hard tot alk about an ambush against 5-6 legions + auxiliar troops.
The very few writings preserved today talk about battles, not ambushes, and about "lost legions" and they even talk about "keeping silence about the number of slains" suffered by Romans


Quote:Where did that come from?

It is probably reffering to campaign from Moesia in 85/86. Dacians/Getae in Burebista time especially has run over Illyria and Macedonia (both Roman provinces at that time). Ceaser himself (which was governor of Iliria) prefered to close his eyes over that and turn around and go for an easier prey, the Gauls and Germans/Suebi of Ariovist


Quote:
Titus Manlius Verus Wrote:They were also the only enemy that got tribute from the Romans.
I guess this depends on what you consider tribute, as Rome paid off many peoples. But as far as this being of Decebalus doing you need to again look to both the Marcomanni and then to Saturninus for this happening.But here is what happened and why Decebalus received tribute:
1. Domitian moved his troops to war upon the Germans(The Marcomanni were seen more as a threat at this time by the Romans).
2. The Dacians attack across the weakened frontier, they surprise the Romans and kill the governor Sabinus and allot of his soldiers.
3. Fuscus start clearing Moesia of Dacians, then crosses over to Dacia, is overwhelmed(ambushed) and defeated.
4. Tettius Julianus(with around 4 legions) is sent in and defeats the Dacians at Tapae.
5. Domitian loses heavily to the Marcomanni.
6. Saturninus rebels and Domitian is forced into an unfavorable treaty.


The main fact who show that Romans paid a tribute to Dacians is that Decebalus kept the standards captured (including the Pretorian Guard standard), as well parts of prisoners and war machines captured. This beside getting lots of money and receiving engineers send by Domitian and even desertors from Roman army who took refuge in Dacia

The fact he keep those standards show alone who was the winner and how big was the humiliation for Romans.

About your points
1- where is said that? Marcomani was Roman clients back then and Domitian had some war against Chatti as far as i know, years before wars with Dacians. By the time of Dacian attack Romans was on the way to conquer Caledonia, with Agricola sailing around there after defeating the Caledonians in battle. Actually i think CAledonia was spared for occupation at that moment precisely because Dacian attack, as Agricola was called back imediatly after that

2- Dacians attacked because Domitian ended a previous agreement to pay them. It was a punishment expedition

3- correct in much part, except the ambush

4- correct, with the mention that Tettius Iulianus retreated imediatly after the battle, way before any problems with Quadi, Marcomani or Saturninus. Which mean that Romans losses was too big to keep going and he was afraid to do that. Dio Cassius mention a trick of Decebalus, with trees cut at the height of a man and with armors, helmets, shields and weapons put on them to look as an army from the distance. When Romans saw that they was afraid to advance, turn around and leave Dacia, but not sure how correct was that

5- Domitian didnt lost that heavily, actually Marcomani send two envoys before, ask him for peace and tell him that they obey. Domitian however kill the emisaries every time, which produced outrage among Marcomani and Quadi who decided to fight back.
The reason Domitian wanted to beat them (they was Roman clients) was that they didnt want to participate in the war against Dacians. They wasnt back then of any threat for the Roman empire, or its frontiers.

6- Saturninus rebellion was put down before Domitian even reach there, in 89 both Marcomani and Saturninus problems was resolved, yet Domitian was afraid to cut again the payment of tribute for Dacians, or even to ask for those lost standards. And it was about Pretorian Guard standard, the most important of Roman army, representing the elite unit who guard the emperor himself.


Quote:This number varies from as low as 30,000 to as high as 150,000. Most
of the authors mention Dacia as a local threat and not much else. As far as Dacia being a small kingdom, that also is under interpretation. Numbers for available soldiers run from 40,000(Oltean) to 250,000(Strobel,Schmitz and Blanchard).
I have debated both of these subjects with diegis and if need be I can post a link to those posts which do provide professional opinion.

The numbers are unclear indeed, for Dacians. About the number of Roman troops, thats a bit more clear (even not without debate) and they are from 75,000 up to 175,000. I saw even 200,000 (but this sound a little too big even for me) as Trajan used as well a lot of iregular troops, a kind of mercenaries raised just for this wars, like Germans who appear on the Column (possible used as "cannon fodder" as they appear fighting half naked and armed just with clubs from what i remember). Not sure where you saw 30,000 for Trajan army?

The estimates for Dacian army goes from 40,000 to 100,000. 250,000 is the supposed number of availlable soldiers in Dacia, nobody say that they was all gathered in the army or fight all in any circumstances.
Is like saying that Roman army had a capacity of 500,000 soldiers but this doesn't mean they was all in Dacia at the battle of Tapae
Razvan A.


Messages In This Thread
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-09-2012, 11:58 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-10-2012, 04:03 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-13-2012, 11:17 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-13-2012, 11:26 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-13-2012, 11:37 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-13-2012, 11:46 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-14-2012, 01:07 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Lyceum - 11-14-2012, 07:01 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-14-2012, 08:06 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-14-2012, 08:10 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-24-2012, 08:59 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-24-2012, 09:44 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 11-29-2012, 05:56 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 12-05-2012, 07:50 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Nikanor - 12-06-2012, 05:31 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Nikanor - 12-06-2012, 07:56 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Nikanor - 12-06-2012, 10:05 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 12-09-2012, 03:48 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 12-18-2012, 06:08 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 12-26-2012, 03:57 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Vindex - 12-26-2012, 06:23 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 12-27-2012, 06:26 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 12-27-2012, 06:49 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-17-2013, 04:41 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Burzum - 01-17-2013, 04:11 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Burzum - 01-17-2013, 04:18 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Burzum - 01-18-2013, 01:04 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Burzum - 01-18-2013, 02:06 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Burzum - 01-18-2013, 02:45 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-26-2013, 05:16 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-26-2013, 05:48 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-26-2013, 06:03 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-26-2013, 06:19 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-26-2013, 06:34 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-30-2013, 10:02 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-30-2013, 10:32 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-30-2013, 11:03 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Macedon - 02-03-2013, 06:28 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 12:31 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 01:11 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 01:33 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 01:42 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 01:48 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 01:58 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-04-2013, 03:18 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Lyceum - 02-05-2013, 02:01 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by Vindex - 02-05-2013, 02:28 AM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-06-2013, 02:35 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-06-2013, 03:02 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 02-06-2013, 03:18 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-01-2013, 08:04 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-12-2013, 03:04 PM
The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy? - by diegis - 01-12-2013, 03:42 PM

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