11-01-2011, 06:47 AM
Hello Joze
Hi Graham S.!
Are you the autor of the books about the Roman dress?
Yes, guilty as charged!
you didn't wrote any reference to the Claire tablet-woven bands? Why?
In the post above or in my books? Claire herself has given a reference in the thread about cavalry tunics.
But in our debate here about the Falkirk tartan: some RAT members means, that in later roman time and army some stranger mans who were also members of the roman army could use the checkered clothes, too.
It is not surprising to find that textiles of native type have been found in what would have been the frontier district. However it is something else to say that this is clear evidence that it was worn by soldiers in the Roman army.
As an illustrator / former re-enactor, I like the idea of dressing Roman troops in native fashions. There are certainly analogies with other periods, it is exotic and makes for good illustrations and fascinating re-constructions.
However as an former re-enactor / archaeological illustrator, if you are presenting such material to the public who will believe what you show to be truthful then hypothetically if asked by a member of the public what I have based such re-constructions on, then I would prefer to say it is based on sound archaeological evidence from a particular site of the right period or some pictorial or literary evidence from the Roman period, rather than say I copied the idea from another re-enactor or from what I believe I read somewhere.
She makes tunic for the mens from GB, but Graham: did you mean in your text the evidented items from GB, or from the continent? Zitat of your text here: "In fact those on the German tombstones look a very different style of tunic altogether, perhaps even influenced by eastern fashion not Gallic."
You should to use the GB evidence - maybe in GB the tunic were made of checkered textiles, aswell:
Sadly there is not the same comparable evidence from Britain to match the first century tombstones from Germany. This also applies to elsewhere. There is no similar group of first century tombstones of the quality of the German ones. There are some first century tombstones from Britain which show cavalry apparently wearing long sleeved tunics but none which show first century infantry and certainly none with the draped tunic shown on the German tombstones in such fine detail. Some tombstones from North Africa show Auxilia but in the simple Roman type tunic. However their quality of detail does not match the German ones either.
There is however more work on textiles in Germany at the moment, so maybe some answers to your questions may come in the next few years. I am also very interested in this particular subject myself and will continue to research it as well.
They used the tunic with sleves, sure and more:
we can find much threads in different forms and articles about the roman military dress in the cold weather, in the winter (f.e.: see the references on the Vicus site from UK) Will anybody say, that in cold weather and rain in the Nord, any roman time-periode, will be enough to wear only the short-sleves tunic with a Byrrus or sagum?
The same problem is with the roman trousers: pants, leg-wrappings, breeches, feminalia - all kind of the items: originaly we all know, that in the south provinces the solders didn't weare them. But during the time, when the roman-expansion went to the Nord, they protected them with better, warmer dress.
So i mean: the tunic with sleves goes in 1. cent. AD in UK by the cold and rainy weather.
It is very true and common sense that the Romans eventually adopted native fashions for cold and hot weather clothing, because influence from the east was much stronger. However they already had the Paenula and tended at first just to wear more tunics and cloaks in cold weather before adopting long sleeved tunics and trousers. ( The Vindolanda documents mention both undercloaks and overcloaks!) However while we do have artistic and literary sources for the long sleeved tunics, trousers, bracae, leg bindings and wrappings from Roman times (although some not before the third century) etc...being worn by Roman troops, as far as I know we do not have the same type of evidence for native British and Gallic style textiles being worn by Roman troops, except for a few literary references to very senior officers adopting native fashions and being criticised for doing so.
When we see the third century military ensemble of long sleeved tunic trousers and sagum cloak, in art and sculpture they are not decorated with old fashioned Gallic or Germanic patterns but a mixture of classical Roman clavi and eastern styles. Equally all the textiles from Roman Egypt are not decorated with old fashioned Egyptian patterns but again with classical motifs.
When we hear of Roman soldiers being sent to Gaul to collect clothing, I assume some people think this means they are collecting old fashioned 'Asterix' type clothes and this supports the wearing of tartan like material at re-enactments. However this is like saying a rich villa owner in South Eastern Britain sends off an order for pottery from Gaul and was expecting to receive some antique rustic pottery, rather than the posh samian ware. The Gallic textile industry was taken over and geared up for the Roman market.
Of course the Roman Army would also hire native mercenaries from beyond the frontiers and these undoubtedly would wear their own clothing, like those shown on Trajan,s column. However I assuming these are not the type of 'Roman' troops you wish to re-construct.
I hope this has been of some help.
Claire.
The reason behind the argument for the textiles found in Germany and Scandinavia being of Gallo Roman origin is that they only appear in Scandinavia and Germany at the same time as the Roman Empire exists in Northern Europe. However you would not be the only person to disagree with this way of thinking.
Graham.
Hi Graham S.!
Are you the autor of the books about the Roman dress?
Yes, guilty as charged!
you didn't wrote any reference to the Claire tablet-woven bands? Why?
In the post above or in my books? Claire herself has given a reference in the thread about cavalry tunics.
But in our debate here about the Falkirk tartan: some RAT members means, that in later roman time and army some stranger mans who were also members of the roman army could use the checkered clothes, too.
It is not surprising to find that textiles of native type have been found in what would have been the frontier district. However it is something else to say that this is clear evidence that it was worn by soldiers in the Roman army.
As an illustrator / former re-enactor, I like the idea of dressing Roman troops in native fashions. There are certainly analogies with other periods, it is exotic and makes for good illustrations and fascinating re-constructions.
However as an former re-enactor / archaeological illustrator, if you are presenting such material to the public who will believe what you show to be truthful then hypothetically if asked by a member of the public what I have based such re-constructions on, then I would prefer to say it is based on sound archaeological evidence from a particular site of the right period or some pictorial or literary evidence from the Roman period, rather than say I copied the idea from another re-enactor or from what I believe I read somewhere.
She makes tunic for the mens from GB, but Graham: did you mean in your text the evidented items from GB, or from the continent? Zitat of your text here: "In fact those on the German tombstones look a very different style of tunic altogether, perhaps even influenced by eastern fashion not Gallic."
You should to use the GB evidence - maybe in GB the tunic were made of checkered textiles, aswell:
Sadly there is not the same comparable evidence from Britain to match the first century tombstones from Germany. This also applies to elsewhere. There is no similar group of first century tombstones of the quality of the German ones. There are some first century tombstones from Britain which show cavalry apparently wearing long sleeved tunics but none which show first century infantry and certainly none with the draped tunic shown on the German tombstones in such fine detail. Some tombstones from North Africa show Auxilia but in the simple Roman type tunic. However their quality of detail does not match the German ones either.
There is however more work on textiles in Germany at the moment, so maybe some answers to your questions may come in the next few years. I am also very interested in this particular subject myself and will continue to research it as well.
They used the tunic with sleves, sure and more:
we can find much threads in different forms and articles about the roman military dress in the cold weather, in the winter (f.e.: see the references on the Vicus site from UK) Will anybody say, that in cold weather and rain in the Nord, any roman time-periode, will be enough to wear only the short-sleves tunic with a Byrrus or sagum?
The same problem is with the roman trousers: pants, leg-wrappings, breeches, feminalia - all kind of the items: originaly we all know, that in the south provinces the solders didn't weare them. But during the time, when the roman-expansion went to the Nord, they protected them with better, warmer dress.
So i mean: the tunic with sleves goes in 1. cent. AD in UK by the cold and rainy weather.
It is very true and common sense that the Romans eventually adopted native fashions for cold and hot weather clothing, because influence from the east was much stronger. However they already had the Paenula and tended at first just to wear more tunics and cloaks in cold weather before adopting long sleeved tunics and trousers. ( The Vindolanda documents mention both undercloaks and overcloaks!) However while we do have artistic and literary sources for the long sleeved tunics, trousers, bracae, leg bindings and wrappings from Roman times (although some not before the third century) etc...being worn by Roman troops, as far as I know we do not have the same type of evidence for native British and Gallic style textiles being worn by Roman troops, except for a few literary references to very senior officers adopting native fashions and being criticised for doing so.
When we see the third century military ensemble of long sleeved tunic trousers and sagum cloak, in art and sculpture they are not decorated with old fashioned Gallic or Germanic patterns but a mixture of classical Roman clavi and eastern styles. Equally all the textiles from Roman Egypt are not decorated with old fashioned Egyptian patterns but again with classical motifs.
When we hear of Roman soldiers being sent to Gaul to collect clothing, I assume some people think this means they are collecting old fashioned 'Asterix' type clothes and this supports the wearing of tartan like material at re-enactments. However this is like saying a rich villa owner in South Eastern Britain sends off an order for pottery from Gaul and was expecting to receive some antique rustic pottery, rather than the posh samian ware. The Gallic textile industry was taken over and geared up for the Roman market.
Of course the Roman Army would also hire native mercenaries from beyond the frontiers and these undoubtedly would wear their own clothing, like those shown on Trajan,s column. However I assuming these are not the type of 'Roman' troops you wish to re-construct.
I hope this has been of some help.
Claire.
The reason behind the argument for the textiles found in Germany and Scandinavia being of Gallo Roman origin is that they only appear in Scandinavia and Germany at the same time as the Roman Empire exists in Northern Europe. However you would not be the only person to disagree with this way of thinking.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
