10-07-2011, 07:23 PM
Quote:Okay, I already quoted you the page numbers for the reference I do have, Goldsworthy pg 26+ 27 diagrams the Polybian Legion with separate maniples of 120 men each. The Marian Legion with no gaps between maniples or Centuries can be found on page 46-47. He shows the ranks 4deep but Macedon has alread demonstrated in a different thread, Goldsworthy's formation is correct but the depth is wrong. Be that as it may, the Polybian Legion NO LONGER EXISTS when Caesar is in Gaul. He makes no mention of maniples, he dispatches and task organizes around COHORTS. He makes no mention of Hastati, he makes no use of Princips or Triarii. Velites have been replaced by Baelearic slingers, Cretan archers and Numidian javeliners (J.C BG II-7,10,19,24,/IV,-25/VII-80/VIII-40). The tradition of these old formation is preserved in the ranking system of the Centurionate in the late Republic (IE: Princeps Prior and Posterior Centruios fought in the third and fourth centuries, to the Hastatus Prior and Posterior who fought in the fifth and sixth Centuries of each Cohort) Roman Legion/http:??w.w.w.unrv.com/military/legion.php
The differences attested in the two systems are not that great in the battle itself. If the question is whether Julius Caesar deployed his men in the traditional Polybian system the answer is definitely no. There are no more Hastati, Princeps and Triarri but that does not mean that the arrangement is not in subsequent lines. It is. The difference is that now the general can choose what parts of his army he will keep in reserve in the assistant lines behind the first. Before that this question did not exist. The general practically had (by tradition) to use the specific units in their predetermined places in the formation. This is why, Brent, I never thought it as strange that the first cohort would by the book be of double strength. The second line would not have to be as wide anyways.
The fact that the army now was subdivided in cohorts instead of maniples played little role in the battle itself. These were subdivisions that were made bigger to be able to be better utilized outside the main battle, where 99% of a legion's work really lay... Greeks had taxeis and syntagmata too, that did not mean that the Greek phalanx would have huge gaps between its own "sperai".
Quote:Sixteen man depth is used but that depth is NOT achieved until the second line closes in behind the first VERY soon after the enemy gets a dose of Pila. (Macedon has the reference for this, Mine is at home in Columbus).
What do you mean by that? I do not think that this was a normal tactic (although it could happen), sounds more than an exception to the "rules".
Quote:Oh yeah I forgot one more thing about the file we discussed:
Bryan wrote:
Lets look at a typical file of the 1st line:
1st soldier - Veteran killing machine
2nd soldier - Same
3rd soldier - Motivated soldier with decent fighting abilities
4th soldier - Somewhat motivated soldier with OK abilities
5th soldier - Doesn't want to fight any longer, only joined cause he was levied
6th soldier - Terrified of fighting/dying. (even in ancient Rome not everyone was tough)
7th soldier - Slot open, soldier wounded severely in sword sharpening accident
8th soldier - Slot open, soldier dead from fever
What about soldier number six and maybe even 5 detailed off to assist with the Torments catapuls and scorpios? LOL!
That table is completely unsubstantiated. I have made a relative comparison of many sources regarding that issue last spring and, although sources vary in their details, the best troopers in an 8 man file would normally be placed as such :
best man (in stature, experience, training, valor...)
1st rank
second best man
2nd rank or file closer
third best man
file closer or 2nd rank
fourth best man
often in the middle, especially in a deeper file that could be ordered to split in half, so that this man could become a first ranker.
the rest
in between
The file closer was a very important figure in the line. There even were men acting as "extraordinary file-closers" who followed the line and made sure everything was OK.
