10-06-2011, 08:28 AM
Bryan wrote: "I have never seen a diagram of a Polybian Legion fighting like this. The last frame is where I have issues. Where did you see this? Interesting concept. Not ready to buy into it but interesting!"
Are you referring to the diagram I cited in Goldsworthy's "Complete Roman Army" Pg 46-47 or the diagrams you posted? My citation is the MARIAN Legion...actually post Marian Legion. The Diagrams you are showing (the ones I am contesting), are the Polybian formations which (effective in thier time) were outdated and no longer in use by the Roman Army...especially after Marius defeated the Cimbrii and Teutone. I do not suggest the transformation occured at a whim or overnight... but it was adopted by Marius, who standardized it AFTER one of his seven consulships. (Someone help me out here, I feel like am fighting with no scuta and my right hand tied behind my back with no library to back me up!)
The Polybian Legion (the one you use) defeated many different types of phalanxae but by the time of the late republic, no enemy of Rome was using the phalanx.
"The 6-8 deep ranks IS documented"
Ya got me there kiddo, I am working in Kansas and have just a minor collection of my references. The rest is at home in Columbus so I cannot cite my source tonight. I contacted my mentor, 'Macedon', who hammered me on a very similar discussion, proving himself correct in nearly every occasion with cited sources I now possess but not in my %$#@! hands! LOL!
I have asked him to enter this thread (although we should start a new one)to cite the sources he cited for me. The 'Greek' resides in Athens and can be very...ruthless in his arguements but he really knows his %$#@! LOL! I am extremely grateful for what I have learned from him.
Ben Kane (AKA Parthian Bow) and author of 'Forgotten Legion', recoomended this site in his books and I joined on his recommendation. We both have a tough audience here! He started this thread on whistles looking for information, but he is very knowledgeable on the topic we are discussing. Wisely, he avoids details on formations in his first three book, but asks about whistles! His 'F.L.' series reads like Marian tactics His Series on Hannible will (I presume) have Legions fighting in the Polybian formation, but I can't read his mind! LOL
"Seriously though, we should atempt to find out why Marius didn't change the centuries to Sinistare and dextere! THAT IS a great question!"
I think he didn't change the name because the prior centurion still fought in front of the posterior. Not right to left.
Rome wasn't built in a day and my research says Marius didn't bother fixing absolutely everything, especially when it might affect the pay and Rank systems of his Centurions.
Centurions fight either; (1)on the right, (2)in the center,(3) where ever the tactical situation dictated. (In my first book, I have them fighting on the left where the scutum doesn't block their view of the men...oh, how wrong I was proved to be there!)
Prior to Marius' reforms, the avereage Legio had to be a land owner. The back bone of the short-term, seasonal service, 'yeoman farmer' class, who made up the ranks of the 'Polybian Legions' was pretty much exterminated after the Cimbrii and company destroyed nearly 400,000 of them during their migrations.
Forced to seek manpower from a new source, Marius introduced a very contoversial program calling for recruitment of the 'captate'.
The Roman 'headcount' were landless citizens still eligible to vote in a diocese. But with no money to provide their personal equipment, and no land for collateral, they were ineligible for military service. Marius, never the less, recruited these plebes into his army (inducing them with promises of land grants after a long-term service) and trained them in a new way. The cohort became the principle tactical arm of each Legion, NOT the maniple, but thge rank system and paperwork order of battle remained the same. I can't cite this, (the sources are in Columbus) but 'Macedon' can.
I also have (at home) diagrams demostrating how it is possible for (Polybian) Legios armed with pila to engage a phalanxe then get in under the pikes/sarrisae to slaughter with the gladius while their adversaries were still struggling with their pikes! (Again you have me by the short hairs, ...I mean the belt, the reference is at home)
Having your men on a long continuous line doesn't make you flexible, just the opposite. Having a 6 man deep front line of centuries administratively broken down into cohorts (because if they are just in a line they serve no tactical purpose of having a cohort) how do they relieve lines? Do centuries of the second line just feed men into the front until all cohesion is lost and men don't have a clue who they are fighting next to?
The flexibility lies in the ability to absorb the 5 (at times 10) to one odds the Romans were forced to deal with in Gaul, along the Rhine, in Britannia, and against the Swiss.
In his 'Commentaries', Caesar constantly referrs to detachments of COHORTs sent off to stem the break through or the flanking maneuvers at the Sambre, Gorgovia and Alesia. He never once mentions maniples.
I have already explained the 'Roman relief' proceedure...changeing out units, whether in the Polybian or the Marian formation, would most easily be accomplished by releiving tired soldiers in relays; either from front to back in the first line, or front to back with the second line butted up (literally on manny occassions)behind the first. I have done this in riot training many times and swapping out by units only leads to disaster. In relays, cohesion isn't lost (we were often a little tense and bewildered), but with consteant training and familiarity (and the second line in support) it is easier than you might think.
Sorry about the misspell on your name. Dyslexia is a terrible thing. You irritate and make my day all at the same time. I need to be working on my book.
First chance I get when I get home, I will send you a copy of my novel (Gratus), FIRST SPEAR Rudimenta. It is about Gaius Crastinus, Titus Pullo, Lucius Vorenus (and others) as recruits in Spain. It is loaded with errors I can't fix in a published and copywritten book (and I don't have the energy to go back and fix what is still a good story). Hopefully I did a better job on the sequel (after 'Macedon' squared me away, Agmen Quadrata). Once you read it I would appreciate a 'keep it straight' guy to read what I am working on. Hell, number two is finished, so how about being a test reader on number three? I will send ya a manuscript for number two to keep ya current. You are just the guy I would have make sure I don't get lazy or complacent as I proceed and Macedon is some kind of activist in Greece. LOL! How about it?
How about we start a thread on the sinsistare/dextere thing?
Gotta get to bed, ya wear me out when I should be writing on my book! LOL!
Always a pleasure to agressively agree to disagree, Brent
Are you referring to the diagram I cited in Goldsworthy's "Complete Roman Army" Pg 46-47 or the diagrams you posted? My citation is the MARIAN Legion...actually post Marian Legion. The Diagrams you are showing (the ones I am contesting), are the Polybian formations which (effective in thier time) were outdated and no longer in use by the Roman Army...especially after Marius defeated the Cimbrii and Teutone. I do not suggest the transformation occured at a whim or overnight... but it was adopted by Marius, who standardized it AFTER one of his seven consulships. (Someone help me out here, I feel like am fighting with no scuta and my right hand tied behind my back with no library to back me up!)
The Polybian Legion (the one you use) defeated many different types of phalanxae but by the time of the late republic, no enemy of Rome was using the phalanx.
"The 6-8 deep ranks IS documented"
Ya got me there kiddo, I am working in Kansas and have just a minor collection of my references. The rest is at home in Columbus so I cannot cite my source tonight. I contacted my mentor, 'Macedon', who hammered me on a very similar discussion, proving himself correct in nearly every occasion with cited sources I now possess but not in my %$#@! hands! LOL!
I have asked him to enter this thread (although we should start a new one)to cite the sources he cited for me. The 'Greek' resides in Athens and can be very...ruthless in his arguements but he really knows his %$#@! LOL! I am extremely grateful for what I have learned from him.
Ben Kane (AKA Parthian Bow) and author of 'Forgotten Legion', recoomended this site in his books and I joined on his recommendation. We both have a tough audience here! He started this thread on whistles looking for information, but he is very knowledgeable on the topic we are discussing. Wisely, he avoids details on formations in his first three book, but asks about whistles! His 'F.L.' series reads like Marian tactics His Series on Hannible will (I presume) have Legions fighting in the Polybian formation, but I can't read his mind! LOL
"Seriously though, we should atempt to find out why Marius didn't change the centuries to Sinistare and dextere! THAT IS a great question!"
I think he didn't change the name because the prior centurion still fought in front of the posterior. Not right to left.
Rome wasn't built in a day and my research says Marius didn't bother fixing absolutely everything, especially when it might affect the pay and Rank systems of his Centurions.
Centurions fight either; (1)on the right, (2)in the center,(3) where ever the tactical situation dictated. (In my first book, I have them fighting on the left where the scutum doesn't block their view of the men...oh, how wrong I was proved to be there!)
Prior to Marius' reforms, the avereage Legio had to be a land owner. The back bone of the short-term, seasonal service, 'yeoman farmer' class, who made up the ranks of the 'Polybian Legions' was pretty much exterminated after the Cimbrii and company destroyed nearly 400,000 of them during their migrations.
Forced to seek manpower from a new source, Marius introduced a very contoversial program calling for recruitment of the 'captate'.
The Roman 'headcount' were landless citizens still eligible to vote in a diocese. But with no money to provide their personal equipment, and no land for collateral, they were ineligible for military service. Marius, never the less, recruited these plebes into his army (inducing them with promises of land grants after a long-term service) and trained them in a new way. The cohort became the principle tactical arm of each Legion, NOT the maniple, but thge rank system and paperwork order of battle remained the same. I can't cite this, (the sources are in Columbus) but 'Macedon' can.
I also have (at home) diagrams demostrating how it is possible for (Polybian) Legios armed with pila to engage a phalanxe then get in under the pikes/sarrisae to slaughter with the gladius while their adversaries were still struggling with their pikes! (Again you have me by the short hairs, ...I mean the belt, the reference is at home)
Having your men on a long continuous line doesn't make you flexible, just the opposite. Having a 6 man deep front line of centuries administratively broken down into cohorts (because if they are just in a line they serve no tactical purpose of having a cohort) how do they relieve lines? Do centuries of the second line just feed men into the front until all cohesion is lost and men don't have a clue who they are fighting next to?
The flexibility lies in the ability to absorb the 5 (at times 10) to one odds the Romans were forced to deal with in Gaul, along the Rhine, in Britannia, and against the Swiss.
In his 'Commentaries', Caesar constantly referrs to detachments of COHORTs sent off to stem the break through or the flanking maneuvers at the Sambre, Gorgovia and Alesia. He never once mentions maniples.
I have already explained the 'Roman relief' proceedure...changeing out units, whether in the Polybian or the Marian formation, would most easily be accomplished by releiving tired soldiers in relays; either from front to back in the first line, or front to back with the second line butted up (literally on manny occassions)behind the first. I have done this in riot training many times and swapping out by units only leads to disaster. In relays, cohesion isn't lost (we were often a little tense and bewildered), but with consteant training and familiarity (and the second line in support) it is easier than you might think.
Sorry about the misspell on your name. Dyslexia is a terrible thing. You irritate and make my day all at the same time. I need to be working on my book.
First chance I get when I get home, I will send you a copy of my novel (Gratus), FIRST SPEAR Rudimenta. It is about Gaius Crastinus, Titus Pullo, Lucius Vorenus (and others) as recruits in Spain. It is loaded with errors I can't fix in a published and copywritten book (and I don't have the energy to go back and fix what is still a good story). Hopefully I did a better job on the sequel (after 'Macedon' squared me away, Agmen Quadrata). Once you read it I would appreciate a 'keep it straight' guy to read what I am working on. Hell, number two is finished, so how about being a test reader on number three? I will send ya a manuscript for number two to keep ya current. You are just the guy I would have make sure I don't get lazy or complacent as I proceed and Macedon is some kind of activist in Greece. LOL! How about it?
How about we start a thread on the sinsistare/dextere thing?
Gotta get to bed, ya wear me out when I should be writing on my book! LOL!
Always a pleasure to agressively agree to disagree, Brent
