10-05-2011, 11:17 PM
Brent,
"I have never seen a diagram of a Polybian Legion fighting like this. The last frame is where I have issues. Where did you see this? Interesting concept. Not ready to buy into it but interesting!"
I took the idea of the basic polybian legion from Polybius, Livy and a ton of other modern sources. The concept of the Marian cohort legion in quincunx formation is also out there, I just demonstrated in the picture why I think it was created.
"Marius reforms did away with the Manipular system in anything more than an adminstrative sense. Their names weren't changed anymore than modern Battalions retain thier own Regimantal designations when Regiments are rarely used anymore."
I would disagree. No one mentions how the cohort system looked in ancient sources. Goldsworthy and many others have laid down how they "think" it might have been similar to mine just be as well. Caesar mentions triplex acies in his commentaries but doesn't say how they were formed. No one else that I am aware of does either. And like I said, the whole point of a cohort system as shown above was that the commander has the luxury of staging the cohorts where ever he wants. Gaps, no gaps, 1 line, 2, 3, 4. Its up to him.
"The 6-8 deep ranks IS documented"
Source please.
"Seriously though, we should atempt to find out why Marius didn't change the centuries to Sinistare and dextere! THAT IS a great question!"
I think he didn't change the name because the prior centurion still fought in front of the posterior just as they always had, not right to left. The only source to the whole right and left century position is Polybius (6:24,8-9) but depending on the translation (i've seen two) I think it's actually referring to where the centurions themselves stand in relation to the maniple itself. Based on personal believes I think it would be wise to put centuries front to back because it gave them depth and a way to relieve one another.
"One of the reasons Marius did away with the Manipular Polybius formation was it's depth allowed those 100,000 Germans or 450,000 Cimbii and Teutone to flank the Generals they defeated before Marius came along and destroyed them...with a longer, more extended and flexible formation."
I thought I stated my reasons why organizing the older maniple system into cohorts ( of 3 maniples) would work. Depth and width with the manpower to protect themselves in battle independently. Can't really explain more than I did. And Marius, Sulla, Caesar and all the others defeated their adversaries through tactics not drill and formations. Like I wrote before, what I drew on those diagrams might not be what Adrian Goldsworthy wrote in his book (even though it is close) but he only stated his assumption based on evidence like I have done mine. Just like Connolly, Delbruck, Sabin,
For the record, I am not arguing against the use of whistles or other signals to give commands to troops. Cornicen and the rest weren't used to entertain the troops. Heck, for both of my trips to Iraq I carried a whistle for similar reasons that was shown in the TV show "Rome". What I am stating is that the way that "Rome" performed a replacement of a rank (not a line) that would be unnecessary in my opinion. I stated my many reasons why it wouldn't be needed already. And judging by the searches I did on this website I am not in the minority for assuming that.
Anyway, we're starting to beat a dead horse here. Actually it's dust at this point.
Oh, and its Bryan not Byron. Think Gaelic Nobleman not English Poet
"I have never seen a diagram of a Polybian Legion fighting like this. The last frame is where I have issues. Where did you see this? Interesting concept. Not ready to buy into it but interesting!"
I took the idea of the basic polybian legion from Polybius, Livy and a ton of other modern sources. The concept of the Marian cohort legion in quincunx formation is also out there, I just demonstrated in the picture why I think it was created.
"Marius reforms did away with the Manipular system in anything more than an adminstrative sense. Their names weren't changed anymore than modern Battalions retain thier own Regimantal designations when Regiments are rarely used anymore."
I would disagree. No one mentions how the cohort system looked in ancient sources. Goldsworthy and many others have laid down how they "think" it might have been similar to mine just be as well. Caesar mentions triplex acies in his commentaries but doesn't say how they were formed. No one else that I am aware of does either. And like I said, the whole point of a cohort system as shown above was that the commander has the luxury of staging the cohorts where ever he wants. Gaps, no gaps, 1 line, 2, 3, 4. Its up to him.
"The 6-8 deep ranks IS documented"
Source please.
"Seriously though, we should atempt to find out why Marius didn't change the centuries to Sinistare and dextere! THAT IS a great question!"
I think he didn't change the name because the prior centurion still fought in front of the posterior just as they always had, not right to left. The only source to the whole right and left century position is Polybius (6:24,8-9) but depending on the translation (i've seen two) I think it's actually referring to where the centurions themselves stand in relation to the maniple itself. Based on personal believes I think it would be wise to put centuries front to back because it gave them depth and a way to relieve one another.
"One of the reasons Marius did away with the Manipular Polybius formation was it's depth allowed those 100,000 Germans or 450,000 Cimbii and Teutone to flank the Generals they defeated before Marius came along and destroyed them...with a longer, more extended and flexible formation."
I thought I stated my reasons why organizing the older maniple system into cohorts ( of 3 maniples) would work. Depth and width with the manpower to protect themselves in battle independently. Can't really explain more than I did. And Marius, Sulla, Caesar and all the others defeated their adversaries through tactics not drill and formations. Like I wrote before, what I drew on those diagrams might not be what Adrian Goldsworthy wrote in his book (even though it is close) but he only stated his assumption based on evidence like I have done mine. Just like Connolly, Delbruck, Sabin,
For the record, I am not arguing against the use of whistles or other signals to give commands to troops. Cornicen and the rest weren't used to entertain the troops. Heck, for both of my trips to Iraq I carried a whistle for similar reasons that was shown in the TV show "Rome". What I am stating is that the way that "Rome" performed a replacement of a rank (not a line) that would be unnecessary in my opinion. I stated my many reasons why it wouldn't be needed already. And judging by the searches I did on this website I am not in the minority for assuming that.
Anyway, we're starting to beat a dead horse here. Actually it's dust at this point.
Oh, and its Bryan not Byron. Think Gaelic Nobleman not English Poet
