10-05-2011, 08:26 AM
To Bryan: And why call the centuries Prior and Posterior if they aren't front to back. Why not say dexter and sinister instead? And you can't use "tradition" because Marius changed the name of the triari maniples to Pilus since they were no longer third rankers. Why wouldn't he change the others?
Marius reforms did away with the Manipular system in anything more than an adminstrative sense. Their names weren't changed anymore than modern Battalions retain thier own Regimantal designations when Regiments are rarely used anymore. Polybius' Legions were completey different from what (at least I )have been discussing. BTW my bad about the gaps between cohorts, I meant no gaps between Centuries. Centuries 'tied in' in the front line cohorts...Thats what I get for cocktailing and typing.... I don't have acsess to a scanner at the moment but I would have you look at Goldsworthy's "Complete Roman Army" Pg 46-47 for a proper Marian Legion Formation, yours are Polybian and obsolete by the time Caesar was in Gaul.
The Centuries continued to retain their Polybian standards, a hand atop the staff for the formerly Prior Centuries and a spearhead atop the standards of the posterior units. As for why Marius 9(usually so very thorough) didn't change the unit designations is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone could start a new thread there?
Bryan also wrote:Lets look at a typical file of the 1st line:
1st soldier - Veteran killing machine
2nd soldier - Same
3rd soldier - Motivated soldier with decent fighting abilities
4th soldier - Somewhat motivated soldier with OK abilities
5th soldier - Doesn't want to fight any longer, only joined cause he was levied
6th soldier - Terrified of fighting/dying. (even in ancient Rome not everyone was tough)
7th soldier - Slot open, soldier wounded severely in sword sharpening accident
8th soldier - Slot open, soldier dead from fever
I would suggest that the formation you mention is still too optomistic. Again I recommend Goldsworthy, page 91. A 1st Century AD duty roster demonstrates that keeping the men around for training otr whatever, was a full time job for a Centurion.
After subtracting in unreplaced losses and years of campaigning your file might look more like this:
Lets look at a typical file of the 1st line:
1st soldier - Veteran killing machine
2nd soldier - Same
3rd soldier - Motivated soldier with decent fighting abilities
4th soldier - Somewhat motivated soldier with OK abilities
5th soldier - Doesn't want to fight any longer, only joined cause he was levied
6th soldier - Might as well be vacant, terrified, pissing his breech cloth.
7th Soldier-vacant
8th soldier_ vacant
I stated a historical example above that could be used still to argue my case. The Cimbri/Teutone confederation had destroyed a total of 4 consular armies (but I thought Romans were unstoppable...) After each victory they plunder the dead of equipment. I propose that by 102 BC when Marius first had a go at the Teutones and destroyed them they were almost entirely armed and equipped as well or if not better than the Romans.
Whether eight deep worked for you or not (in your opinion) or not doesn't hold weight either...Eight deep (when you can get it ) turns into 14-16 deep when the second line joins the first (very soon) after battle is joined. I was hammered on this myself when I attempted to argue this point with some of the people here. I am surprised they haven't entered into this thread to beat us both up. :lol:
The 6-8 deep ranks IS documented. One of the reasons Marius did away with the Manipular Polybius formation was it's depth allowed those 100,000 Germans or 450,000 Cimbii and Teutone to flank the Generals they defeated before Marius came along and destroyed them...with a longer, more extended and flexible formation. Polybius' formation defeated the Greek and Macedonian phalanx but that formation was no longer used by Marius' time. (Caesar describes natives aligning by tribal groups but the phalanxes described by modern historians is more a translator error). Going against incredibly vast numbers called for extended lines, flexibility and teamwork to a level not possible in Polybius' formation. Legios who did not remain in formation were executed for their lack of discipine, in the standard manner. Any that wavered as YOU describe, were flogged.
Seriously though, we should atempt to find out why Marius didn't change the centuries to Sinistare and dextere! THAT IS a great question!
Marius reforms did away with the Manipular system in anything more than an adminstrative sense. Their names weren't changed anymore than modern Battalions retain thier own Regimantal designations when Regiments are rarely used anymore. Polybius' Legions were completey different from what (at least I )have been discussing. BTW my bad about the gaps between cohorts, I meant no gaps between Centuries. Centuries 'tied in' in the front line cohorts...Thats what I get for cocktailing and typing.... I don't have acsess to a scanner at the moment but I would have you look at Goldsworthy's "Complete Roman Army" Pg 46-47 for a proper Marian Legion Formation, yours are Polybian and obsolete by the time Caesar was in Gaul.
The Centuries continued to retain their Polybian standards, a hand atop the staff for the formerly Prior Centuries and a spearhead atop the standards of the posterior units. As for why Marius 9(usually so very thorough) didn't change the unit designations is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone could start a new thread there?
Bryan also wrote:Lets look at a typical file of the 1st line:
1st soldier - Veteran killing machine
2nd soldier - Same
3rd soldier - Motivated soldier with decent fighting abilities
4th soldier - Somewhat motivated soldier with OK abilities
5th soldier - Doesn't want to fight any longer, only joined cause he was levied
6th soldier - Terrified of fighting/dying. (even in ancient Rome not everyone was tough)
7th soldier - Slot open, soldier wounded severely in sword sharpening accident
8th soldier - Slot open, soldier dead from fever
I would suggest that the formation you mention is still too optomistic. Again I recommend Goldsworthy, page 91. A 1st Century AD duty roster demonstrates that keeping the men around for training otr whatever, was a full time job for a Centurion.
After subtracting in unreplaced losses and years of campaigning your file might look more like this:
Lets look at a typical file of the 1st line:
1st soldier - Veteran killing machine
2nd soldier - Same
3rd soldier - Motivated soldier with decent fighting abilities
4th soldier - Somewhat motivated soldier with OK abilities
5th soldier - Doesn't want to fight any longer, only joined cause he was levied
6th soldier - Might as well be vacant, terrified, pissing his breech cloth.
7th Soldier-vacant
8th soldier_ vacant
I stated a historical example above that could be used still to argue my case. The Cimbri/Teutone confederation had destroyed a total of 4 consular armies (but I thought Romans were unstoppable...) After each victory they plunder the dead of equipment. I propose that by 102 BC when Marius first had a go at the Teutones and destroyed them they were almost entirely armed and equipped as well or if not better than the Romans.
Whether eight deep worked for you or not (in your opinion) or not doesn't hold weight either...Eight deep (when you can get it ) turns into 14-16 deep when the second line joins the first (very soon) after battle is joined. I was hammered on this myself when I attempted to argue this point with some of the people here. I am surprised they haven't entered into this thread to beat us both up. :lol:
The 6-8 deep ranks IS documented. One of the reasons Marius did away with the Manipular Polybius formation was it's depth allowed those 100,000 Germans or 450,000 Cimbii and Teutone to flank the Generals they defeated before Marius came along and destroyed them...with a longer, more extended and flexible formation. Polybius' formation defeated the Greek and Macedonian phalanx but that formation was no longer used by Marius' time. (Caesar describes natives aligning by tribal groups but the phalanxes described by modern historians is more a translator error). Going against incredibly vast numbers called for extended lines, flexibility and teamwork to a level not possible in Polybius' formation. Legios who did not remain in formation were executed for their lack of discipine, in the standard manner. Any that wavered as YOU describe, were flogged.
Seriously though, we should atempt to find out why Marius didn't change the centuries to Sinistare and dextere! THAT IS a great question!
