12-19-2010, 09:45 PM
Hello, I'd like to recommend the following book:
Andreas Kleineberg, Christian Marx, Eberhard Knobloch, Dieter Lelgemann
Germania Und Die Insel Thule (Germania And the Island Of Thule)
Die Entschlüsselung von Ptolemaos’ “Atlas der Oikumene” (Decoding Ptolemaios “Atlas Of The Oikumene”
[=Geographike Hyphegesis /?????????? ???????? ]
Darmstadt 2010 (Wissenschaftliche Buchgemeinschaft)
This book basically deals with transferring geographic data given in Claudius Ptolemaios’ works onto modern cards and identifying modern locations and landscapes with it.
In this volume the Roman provinces Gallia Belgica, Germania Inferior, Germania Superior are treated, alongside the Germania Magna (Germania Megale/
Some words beforehand:
Most of the links listed are in German, a natural thing with a german publication that has been tranlated into other languages yet.
1. I’m still not finished „digesting“ what I’ve read there.
2. German Wikipedia is already referring to it
[url:2270s55j]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographike_Hyphegesis#Interpretation_durch_Dieter_Lelgemann_und_andere[/url]
International Wikipedia is not. (= as to Dec. 20th,2010)
3. Since german magazines like the SPIEGEL (yes, the very magazine that published the infamous “Che Guevara im Nebelland” –diddy on the Varusschlacht :roll: ) or newspapers like the Sueddeutsche Zeitung (Munich)
[url:2270s55j]http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/ptolemaeus-korrigiert-eine-neue-vermessung-der-alten-welt-1.826706[/url]
have already published “on it” a lot of different folks feel “inspired” to publish their “wisdom” – most of what I’ve seen here doesn’t qualify as “sensible” or “well thought-out” or plain speculative.
[url:2270s55j]http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,719602-2,00.html[/url]
[url:2270s55j]http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,720513,00.html[/url]
The latter is in English.
(Big thanks to D.B. Campbell here for bringing that one to my attention)
Further references:
History Magazine (In German):
[url:2270s55j]http://history.mediaquell.com/2010/10/19/germania-und-die-insel-thule-rezension-3422/[/url]
Examples of the “more interesting than just amusing” kind
On Leipzig (In German) :
[url:2270s55j]http://www.l-iz.de/Bildung/Zeitreise/2010/09/Ausgelesen-Ist-Leipzig-schon-2.000-Jahre-alt.html[/url]
Dr. Michael Gechter on e.g. Bergisch-Gladbach
[url:2270s55j]http://www.rhein-berg-online.ksta.de/html/artikel/1285338012821.shtml[/url]
(One of the better statements on the case)
On Hannover:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.neuepresse.de/Hannover/Uebersicht/Hannover-viel-aelter-als-gedacht[/url]
(Older than you thought --- how old did ya think, seriously ? :mrgreen: )
On Frankfurt/Oder:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.portal-schwedt.de/stadtportrait/downloads/mozcolancorum.pdf[/url]
On Amberg
Amberg= Marobudum ----the Marcomannic capital ?
[url:2270s55j]http://www.schauhuette.de/blog/archives/352[/url]
(Well ?!)
Definitely less „inspired“:
A statement of a leading german archeologist concerning this book and the identification of the site as Mattiacum.
[url:2270s55j]http://www.roemerforum-lahnau.de/aktuell.htm[/url]
(What problems does he have ?
hock:
Who said “Si tacuisses …..” here ?! :mrgreen:
[url:2270s55j]http://audiolatinproverbs.blogspot.com/2007/01/si-tacuisses-philosophus-mansisses.html[/url]
Maybe more something like “RTFM”.
[Full words may lead to having this thread closed ?! :mrgreen: ]
Therefore:
[url:2270s55j]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM[/url]
BTW:
A very interesting map on the subject:
[url:2270s55j]http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=113227378687572833113.000490b1bb0ecad317036[/url]
Yes, and I just ran into a polish “echo” on that subject with instructive maps.
[url:2270s55j]http://adamfularz.salon24.pl/254068,odkodowano-wspolrzedne-antycznej-mapy-polski-ze-150-roku-n-e[/url]
The “cultural” formats on one of the major german TV-stations (ZDF) have also set towards this topic:
[url:2270s55j]http://aspekte.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/3/0,1872,8172387,00.html[/url]
EDIT: A brief review in English here:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread621886/pg1[/url]
…voila, en francais:
[url:2270s55j]http://decouvertes-archeologiques.blogspot.com/2010/10/des-chercheurs-de-berlin-dechiffrent-la.html[/url]
4.This book is a result of “interdisciplinary research” and , as I’m thinking more of a scientic publication than a popular one.(Works for it have begun as far back as 2004.)
5.It is therefore tempting just to view the charts published therein and taking its data give selectively, using the adjoined remarks the same way.
After reading the book and understanding the larger part of it ( Defintinely here not the Math and scientific Geographical technical terms, I’ll have to admit :oops: ) , I feel that there are two caveats are essential:
I)Computing and correcting the longitude and latitude data given by Ptolemy does not yield in locating places more precise than 10-20 km. (See below)
II)In the charts given there is a column “S” (Sicherheit/Certainty). This tends to be overlooked by most reviewers.
All in all only a number of about 12 places are rated “s” (sicher/certain) , mostly places which already have been identified beyond doubt my other means (epipgraphy/excavations etc.).
About the same number of places is rated “w” (wahrscheinlich/probable), the rest shows a “u” (unsicher/uncertain), which in essence means it can be any place up to 20kms around.
6.The interdisciplinary approach of this book means that the folks involved have different backgrounds:
Andreas Kleineberg is scientific assistant with the Institute of Geodesia (?) and Geographical Informations Technique at the Technical University of Berlin (D), the specialist for ancient languages in the team,
[url:2270s55j]http://www.gis.tu-berlin.de/menue/mitarbeiter/andreas_kleineberg/[/url]
Christian Marx., also at TUB is the Informatics specialist.
[url:2270s55j]http://www.gis.tu-berlin.de/menue/mitarbeiter/christian_marx/[/url]
Professor Eberhard Knobloch , Historian, is President of the European Society for the Historic Sciences since 2006 and also a former member of this universities’ body of scientists, “serving” as teacher at high-schools and as professor of Mathematics well before that time.
Publications:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.philosophie.tu-berlin.de/uploads/media/knobloch_lit_2010_10_14.pdf[/url]
Dieter Lelgeman is Professor emeritus for astronomical and physical (?) Geodesia at the TU of Berlin.
(A picture speaks more than a 1000 words:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.pro-physik.de/Phy/leadArticle.do?laid=12075%20%20!)[/url]
[url:2270s55j]http://www.gis.tu-berlin.de/menue/mitarbeiter/dieter_lelgemann/[/url]
This man is definitely not a novice to this stuff. :wink:
BTW:
A little essay about the history of Geodesia:
[url:2270s55j]http://mca.bv.tu-berlin.de/~lelge/gdg/gdg.html[/url]
( Yikes …… MATH !!!!hock: )
No archeologist ?! Can this work ?! :roll:
7.Last but not least:
Yes there is more than a scant probability that the island of Thule may be the island of SMOLA Trondheim/Norway. (O.K. the “O” actually is an more like an “OE” here, as is customary to Scandinavian languages)
Norwegian review on the results up to 2008:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.ringeriksporten.no/Nyheter_2008/2008_608.html[/url]
Slightly OT:
Dieter Lelgemann:
On the Ancient Determination of the Meridian Arc Length by Eratosthenes of Kyrene (In English)
[url:2270s55j]http://www.fig.net/pub/athens/papers/wshs1/wshs1_1_lelgemann.pdf[/url]
O.K. --- back to the subject:
A) The contents:
The book is divided in 6 parts:
I)The Introduction
It deals with the perspective and stature of Ptolemaios “geography”.
Together with Tacitus’ “Germania” it is the chief source about Germania during the times of the roman high-empire.
Ptolemy was born around 100 AD and died about 170AD, so he was roughly a contemporary of Tacitus, but as opposed to him, it was unlikely that Ptolemy himself had a closer look (=visit)on the northern territory of the Roman Empire, for he was living at Alexandria, the “science capital” of the greco-roman world.
Since he wrote this works at ca. 150AD he only had access to sources before that date – the “early” roman empire.
A short mentioning of Ptolemy’s way of annotating the coordinates is also given by now, before dealing with the problems associated with identifying real-world places with them.
The biggest problem when dealing with this works is that no “original “ has “come upon us” – only a couple of more or less complete and somewhat different copies (= 53 in Greek Language only) . The latest find stemming from about 1300 AD, found about 5 (?) years ago at the Topkapi Serai, Istanbul, Turkey, which shed a little bit more light onto the affairs. The oldest one Papyrus Rylands 522 from about 200AD. The introduction then goes on dealing with
the different “lines “ of copies and how they act as a source of mistakes, his sources and Ptolemy’s method of computing for the geographic situation of the places and landscapes mentioned.
The next part is dealing with the “rectification” of Ptolemy’s data, beginning with an explanation of the limits of
“exactness” posed on it by the use of an “original” max. resolution of 5’ only – and only in a part of the data supplied by Ptolemy.
O.K. my time is limited , so this is end of part 1.
Further part(s) as soon as time allows.
Greez
Simplex
I'm sparing up the more spectacular "data" for next time. 8)
Andreas Kleineberg, Christian Marx, Eberhard Knobloch, Dieter Lelgemann
Germania Und Die Insel Thule (Germania And the Island Of Thule)
Die Entschlüsselung von Ptolemaos’ “Atlas der Oikumene” (Decoding Ptolemaios “Atlas Of The Oikumene”
[=Geographike Hyphegesis /?????????? ???????? ]
Darmstadt 2010 (Wissenschaftliche Buchgemeinschaft)
This book basically deals with transferring geographic data given in Claudius Ptolemaios’ works onto modern cards and identifying modern locations and landscapes with it.
In this volume the Roman provinces Gallia Belgica, Germania Inferior, Germania Superior are treated, alongside the Germania Magna (Germania Megale/
Some words beforehand:
Most of the links listed are in German, a natural thing with a german publication that has been tranlated into other languages yet.
1. I’m still not finished „digesting“ what I’ve read there.
2. German Wikipedia is already referring to it
[url:2270s55j]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographike_Hyphegesis#Interpretation_durch_Dieter_Lelgemann_und_andere[/url]
International Wikipedia is not. (= as to Dec. 20th,2010)
3. Since german magazines like the SPIEGEL (yes, the very magazine that published the infamous “Che Guevara im Nebelland” –diddy on the Varusschlacht :roll: ) or newspapers like the Sueddeutsche Zeitung (Munich)
[url:2270s55j]http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/ptolemaeus-korrigiert-eine-neue-vermessung-der-alten-welt-1.826706[/url]
have already published “on it” a lot of different folks feel “inspired” to publish their “wisdom” – most of what I’ve seen here doesn’t qualify as “sensible” or “well thought-out” or plain speculative.
[url:2270s55j]http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,719602-2,00.html[/url]
[url:2270s55j]http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,720513,00.html[/url]
The latter is in English.
(Big thanks to D.B. Campbell here for bringing that one to my attention)
Further references:
History Magazine (In German):
[url:2270s55j]http://history.mediaquell.com/2010/10/19/germania-und-die-insel-thule-rezension-3422/[/url]
Examples of the “more interesting than just amusing” kind
On Leipzig (In German) :
[url:2270s55j]http://www.l-iz.de/Bildung/Zeitreise/2010/09/Ausgelesen-Ist-Leipzig-schon-2.000-Jahre-alt.html[/url]
Dr. Michael Gechter on e.g. Bergisch-Gladbach
[url:2270s55j]http://www.rhein-berg-online.ksta.de/html/artikel/1285338012821.shtml[/url]
(One of the better statements on the case)
On Hannover:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.neuepresse.de/Hannover/Uebersicht/Hannover-viel-aelter-als-gedacht[/url]
(Older than you thought --- how old did ya think, seriously ? :mrgreen: )
On Frankfurt/Oder:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.portal-schwedt.de/stadtportrait/downloads/mozcolancorum.pdf[/url]
On Amberg
Amberg= Marobudum ----the Marcomannic capital ?
[url:2270s55j]http://www.schauhuette.de/blog/archives/352[/url]
(Well ?!)
Definitely less „inspired“:
A statement of a leading german archeologist concerning this book and the identification of the site as Mattiacum.
[url:2270s55j]http://www.roemerforum-lahnau.de/aktuell.htm[/url]
(What problems does he have ?
hock: Who said “Si tacuisses …..” here ?! :mrgreen:
[url:2270s55j]http://audiolatinproverbs.blogspot.com/2007/01/si-tacuisses-philosophus-mansisses.html[/url]
Maybe more something like “RTFM”.
[Full words may lead to having this thread closed ?! :mrgreen: ]
Therefore:
[url:2270s55j]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM[/url]
BTW:
A very interesting map on the subject:
[url:2270s55j]http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=113227378687572833113.000490b1bb0ecad317036[/url]
Yes, and I just ran into a polish “echo” on that subject with instructive maps.
[url:2270s55j]http://adamfularz.salon24.pl/254068,odkodowano-wspolrzedne-antycznej-mapy-polski-ze-150-roku-n-e[/url]
The “cultural” formats on one of the major german TV-stations (ZDF) have also set towards this topic:
[url:2270s55j]http://aspekte.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/3/0,1872,8172387,00.html[/url]
EDIT: A brief review in English here:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread621886/pg1[/url]
…voila, en francais:
[url:2270s55j]http://decouvertes-archeologiques.blogspot.com/2010/10/des-chercheurs-de-berlin-dechiffrent-la.html[/url]
4.This book is a result of “interdisciplinary research” and , as I’m thinking more of a scientic publication than a popular one.(Works for it have begun as far back as 2004.)
5.It is therefore tempting just to view the charts published therein and taking its data give selectively, using the adjoined remarks the same way.
After reading the book and understanding the larger part of it ( Defintinely here not the Math and scientific Geographical technical terms, I’ll have to admit :oops: ) , I feel that there are two caveats are essential:
I)Computing and correcting the longitude and latitude data given by Ptolemy does not yield in locating places more precise than 10-20 km. (See below)
II)In the charts given there is a column “S” (Sicherheit/Certainty). This tends to be overlooked by most reviewers.
All in all only a number of about 12 places are rated “s” (sicher/certain) , mostly places which already have been identified beyond doubt my other means (epipgraphy/excavations etc.).
About the same number of places is rated “w” (wahrscheinlich/probable), the rest shows a “u” (unsicher/uncertain), which in essence means it can be any place up to 20kms around.
6.The interdisciplinary approach of this book means that the folks involved have different backgrounds:
Andreas Kleineberg is scientific assistant with the Institute of Geodesia (?) and Geographical Informations Technique at the Technical University of Berlin (D), the specialist for ancient languages in the team,
[url:2270s55j]http://www.gis.tu-berlin.de/menue/mitarbeiter/andreas_kleineberg/[/url]
Christian Marx., also at TUB is the Informatics specialist.
[url:2270s55j]http://www.gis.tu-berlin.de/menue/mitarbeiter/christian_marx/[/url]
Professor Eberhard Knobloch , Historian, is President of the European Society for the Historic Sciences since 2006 and also a former member of this universities’ body of scientists, “serving” as teacher at high-schools and as professor of Mathematics well before that time.
Publications:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.philosophie.tu-berlin.de/uploads/media/knobloch_lit_2010_10_14.pdf[/url]
Dieter Lelgeman is Professor emeritus for astronomical and physical (?) Geodesia at the TU of Berlin.
(A picture speaks more than a 1000 words:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.pro-physik.de/Phy/leadArticle.do?laid=12075%20%20!)[/url]
[url:2270s55j]http://www.gis.tu-berlin.de/menue/mitarbeiter/dieter_lelgemann/[/url]
This man is definitely not a novice to this stuff. :wink:
BTW:
A little essay about the history of Geodesia:
[url:2270s55j]http://mca.bv.tu-berlin.de/~lelge/gdg/gdg.html[/url]
( Yikes …… MATH !!!!
hock: )No archeologist ?! Can this work ?! :roll:
7.Last but not least:
Yes there is more than a scant probability that the island of Thule may be the island of SMOLA Trondheim/Norway. (O.K. the “O” actually is an more like an “OE” here, as is customary to Scandinavian languages)
Norwegian review on the results up to 2008:
[url:2270s55j]http://www.ringeriksporten.no/Nyheter_2008/2008_608.html[/url]
Slightly OT:
Dieter Lelgemann:
On the Ancient Determination of the Meridian Arc Length by Eratosthenes of Kyrene (In English)
[url:2270s55j]http://www.fig.net/pub/athens/papers/wshs1/wshs1_1_lelgemann.pdf[/url]
O.K. --- back to the subject:
A) The contents:
The book is divided in 6 parts:
I)The Introduction
It deals with the perspective and stature of Ptolemaios “geography”.
Together with Tacitus’ “Germania” it is the chief source about Germania during the times of the roman high-empire.
Ptolemy was born around 100 AD and died about 170AD, so he was roughly a contemporary of Tacitus, but as opposed to him, it was unlikely that Ptolemy himself had a closer look (=visit)on the northern territory of the Roman Empire, for he was living at Alexandria, the “science capital” of the greco-roman world.
Since he wrote this works at ca. 150AD he only had access to sources before that date – the “early” roman empire.
A short mentioning of Ptolemy’s way of annotating the coordinates is also given by now, before dealing with the problems associated with identifying real-world places with them.
The biggest problem when dealing with this works is that no “original “ has “come upon us” – only a couple of more or less complete and somewhat different copies (= 53 in Greek Language only) . The latest find stemming from about 1300 AD, found about 5 (?) years ago at the Topkapi Serai, Istanbul, Turkey, which shed a little bit more light onto the affairs. The oldest one Papyrus Rylands 522 from about 200AD. The introduction then goes on dealing with
the different “lines “ of copies and how they act as a source of mistakes, his sources and Ptolemy’s method of computing for the geographic situation of the places and landscapes mentioned.
The next part is dealing with the “rectification” of Ptolemy’s data, beginning with an explanation of the limits of
“exactness” posed on it by the use of an “original” max. resolution of 5’ only – and only in a part of the data supplied by Ptolemy.
O.K. my time is limited , so this is end of part 1.
Further part(s) as soon as time allows.
Greez
Simplex
I'm sparing up the more spectacular "data" for next time. 8)
Siggi K.
