Giannis vs Polinik on the color of bronze :)

[Paullus Scipio]

Dear Paul,
1. modern phosphor bronze normally doesn´t have more than 0,5% phosphor in it, this doesn´t really have an effect on the colour. Indeed Phosphor bronze didn´t exist. Arsenic bronze did. To elaborate: You said modern reddish bronzes did not exist". This is not true in regard of the colour, as that is what you are talking about. Of course modern bronzes did not exist, they are too "pure". In regard of colour this is wrong, though. A look at the metallurgical part of the Haltern publication quickly shows this.
e.g.: #385
Cu 91,33
Sn 7,01
Pb 1,37
Zn 0,02
Fe 0,05
Ni 0,04
Ag 0,06
Sb 0,10
As <0,10
Optically this would not be distinguishable from a modern CuSn8 bronze.
Again we are not in disagreement - I was making a [i]generalisation, and pointing out that most ancient bronzes were originally 'yellowish' like brass rather than the 'reddish' hue of modern 'bronze'. Naturally, there are going to be particular items that don't fit the generalisation - the exceptions that 'prove' (i.e. test) the rule.......[/i]

@ the helmet:I mixed up the metals above the brow guard is brass, the skull bronze... ^^

2.: No, I disagree. Bronze with a tin content of below 10% will always have a copperish tone, unless you also add a good amount of Pb.
Well I'm certainly not going to quibble about the colour difference between "9%" and "10%" !!. For further differences, one could note the diferences in alloys used in early, middle and late corinthians. Perhaps we can agree that lower tin proportion would lead to a 'rosy' or 'pinkish' hue ( e.g. 7 C BC corinthians), while higher tin proportions typical of 'classical' or 'late' corinthians lead to a 'brassy' colour ???

3.: The munich helmet (plus sauroter and greaves) should be first examined in different ways, before used like this in an argument. Was it exposed to a decomposing body? How was it restored? What chemicals were used in the restoration process? How long ago did the restoration take place? All these factors may have an impact on the colour of the helmet as we see it today. Note that until the 1920ies heating was also used for metal restoration, i.e. glowing out iron pieces or bronze / brass items. This of course would also have had an impact on the colour of the helmet...
Cheers! Christian
Again, agreed! As I said earlier, colour changes can be wrought by time and restoration and one would have to reproduce the exact alloy to be certain of the original colour. Examination of other close-up photos of the Munich example reveals a subtle variety of colour hues - but the matters you describe wouldn't dramatically change the overall colour from 'coppery/red' to 'brassy/yellow. For our purposes, the particular hue is not too important, merely the fact that ancient bronze helmets such as the Munich and other 'bronze' examples were mostly of a 'gold/yellowish hue', rather than the 'reddish/coppery' colour we tend to associate with modern 'bronze'......