11-25-2010, 01:01 PM
We do not disagree in reality. I only point out that the evidence does not allow us to say that an Athenian did not relatively easily understand a Macedonian, nor specify a degree of linguistic difference. I also think that it must be clarified that it is wrong to compare Macedonian Greek with some non-existent "standard Greek". Atttic was a linking dialect for Greeks but you make it sound as if the Southern poleis spoke a single variation of Greek, which is not the case. In fact the chance is that there was as much unintelligibility between Southern Greeks as between any of them and a Macedonian.
What conclusion can we reach from the following Greek texts?
1. "????????? ?????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????· ? ?????????, ?????? ?? ????· ??? ?? ??? ???????? ????????,", Flavius Arrianus Hist. et Phil., Alexandri anabasis. Book 6 chapter 13 section 5 line 5.
2. "? ??? ????’ ??????, ?? ?? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ???? ??????????? ??? ?? ?????????? ?? ????· ????? ?’ ????? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ?????? ? ??????? ??????", Xenophon Hist., Anabasis. Book 3 chapter 1 section 26 line 2.
3. "????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??????????, ?? ?? ??? ?????????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????; ????? ???? ???????? ??? ?????????? ??????" Diodorus Siculus Hist., Bibliotheca historica (lib. 21–40). Book 26 chapter 18 section 1 line 33.
4. "?????????? ??? ??? ?????????? ??? ????????????? ??? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ????????????? ??????, ?? ??? ?? ??? ??????, ?????????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????????????. ? ?? ???? ????????????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????????·" Parthenius Myth., Narrationes amatoriae. Chapter 24 section 2 line 7.
5. "???? ?????????? ????? ? ?? ?? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????????.“ ??? ?? ??? ????????, ????? ?????????????, ???? ?? ???? ?????????· „?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????, ????? ?? ???????· ?? ??? ?????????· ?? ?’ ????????, ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????."Plutarchus Biogr. et Phil., Pyrrhus. Chapter 26 section 24 line 2.
6. "????????? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ???????, ?? ?’ ????? ???? ?????????? ???? ??? ???????, ???, ?????????? ???????. ?? ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???????, ????????????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???????????? ??? ???????????. ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???????" Dio Chrysostomus Soph., Orationes. {0612.001} Oration 43 section 5 line 10.
7. "?? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ????????, ???? ???? ?????? ???????? <?????>, ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ??????? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ???? ?? ?????????, ????? ?? ??????? ???????????, ??????? ????? ???????????? ? ??????????, ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????, ???????? ???????." Dio Chrysostomus Soph., Orationes. Oration 11 section 23a line 9
8. "????? ??? ???? ???, ?????? ?? ????????. ?? ??? ??????????, ????’ ?? ????? ????? ????? ???’· ?? ?’ ??????? ???????????.?? ????????????? ????????? ??? ????????? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????? ?????;" Heraclides Criticus Perieg., Descriptio Graeciae. Fragment 3 section 8 line 6 (the words of Poseidippus scolding the Athenians for saying that their tongue and city are (what should be considered) Greek)
A very educating text is : Tatianus Apol., Oratio ad Graecos.
"??? ?? ?????? ???? ????????? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ?????????. ??????? ??? ??? ??? ? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???????, ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????????· ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ???’ ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??????. ??? ??? ?? ?????????????, ??? ?? ????????? ???? ????????? ??????????, ??????????? ?? ?????? ???’ ??? ???????????? ????????? ???? ?????????? ??? ?????????. ?????? ????? ??????????? ?? ???’ ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????. ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??????????? ??? ??????????, ????????? ???????, ??????? ??????,"
"?? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????????? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ?????????, ???? ?? ?????? ???????????; ?? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ????????, ???? ??? ??? ?? ???????? ??? ??????· ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????????????,
?? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??????????;", Tatianus Apol., Oratio ad Graecos. Chapter 26 section 4 line 1.
These examples serve to remind us of what we all already know but seem to not keep in mind when speaking about the Macedonian way of speech. That is that there were many regional dialects in Greece and that there was no "standard Greek" at the time of Perdiccas II or Alexander the Great (the Koine afterwards can be characterized as standard Greek, although the use of the major dialects (and as such sub-dialects) are attested deep into the Byzantine era). I also have offered examples that seem to insinuate that there was indeed a degree of intelligibility between them more directly than any comment we have about the Macedonian dialect. This does not mean that I suggest that Macedonian (or any of the Macedonian variations) was perfectly and immediately understandable to all. It might be easier to understand by an Aeolian or a Dorian speaker and less understandable to an Attic speaker than some other Greek dialect. Also, I have to point out the use of the word "barbarikoteron" as an adjective used by Athenians to look down on Dorian... I am amazed that this has not yet served as an argument to some idiots out there as to how the Dorians were in reality barbarians and since the Lacedaemonians were descendants of the Makednoi, then Sparta is Slav or something...
What conclusion can we reach from the following Greek texts?
1. "????????? ?????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????· ? ?????????, ?????? ?? ????· ??? ?? ??? ???????? ????????,", Flavius Arrianus Hist. et Phil., Alexandri anabasis. Book 6 chapter 13 section 5 line 5.
2. "? ??? ????’ ??????, ?? ?? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ???? ??????????? ??? ?? ?????????? ?? ????· ????? ?’ ????? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ?????? ? ??????? ??????", Xenophon Hist., Anabasis. Book 3 chapter 1 section 26 line 2.
3. "????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??????????, ?? ?? ??? ?????????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????; ????? ???? ???????? ??? ?????????? ??????" Diodorus Siculus Hist., Bibliotheca historica (lib. 21–40). Book 26 chapter 18 section 1 line 33.
4. "?????????? ??? ??? ?????????? ??? ????????????? ??? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ????????????? ??????, ?? ??? ?? ??? ??????, ?????????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????????????. ? ?? ???? ????????????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????????·" Parthenius Myth., Narrationes amatoriae. Chapter 24 section 2 line 7.
5. "???? ?????????? ????? ? ?? ?? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????????.“ ??? ?? ??? ????????, ????? ?????????????, ???? ?? ???? ?????????· „?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????, ????? ?? ???????· ?? ??? ?????????· ?? ?’ ????????, ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????."Plutarchus Biogr. et Phil., Pyrrhus. Chapter 26 section 24 line 2.
6. "????????? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ???????, ?? ?’ ????? ???? ?????????? ???? ??? ???????, ???, ?????????? ???????. ?? ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???????, ????????????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???????????? ??? ???????????. ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???????" Dio Chrysostomus Soph., Orationes. {0612.001} Oration 43 section 5 line 10.
7. "?? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ????????, ???? ???? ?????? ???????? <?????>, ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ??????? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ???? ?? ?????????, ????? ?? ??????? ???????????, ??????? ????? ???????????? ? ??????????, ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????, ???????? ???????." Dio Chrysostomus Soph., Orationes. Oration 11 section 23a line 9
8. "????? ??? ???? ???, ?????? ?? ????????. ?? ??? ??????????, ????’ ?? ????? ????? ????? ???’· ?? ?’ ??????? ???????????.?? ????????????? ????????? ??? ????????? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????? ?????;" Heraclides Criticus Perieg., Descriptio Graeciae. Fragment 3 section 8 line 6 (the words of Poseidippus scolding the Athenians for saying that their tongue and city are (what should be considered) Greek)
A very educating text is : Tatianus Apol., Oratio ad Graecos.
"??? ?? ?????? ???? ????????? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ?????????. ??????? ??? ??? ??? ? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???????, ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????????· ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ???’ ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??????. ??? ??? ?? ?????????????, ??? ?? ????????? ???? ????????? ??????????, ??????????? ?? ?????? ???’ ??? ???????????? ????????? ???? ?????????? ??? ?????????. ?????? ????? ??????????? ?? ???’ ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????. ???? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??????????? ??? ??????????, ????????? ???????, ??????? ??????,"
"?? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????????? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ?????????, ???? ?? ?????? ???????????; ?? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ????????, ???? ??? ??? ?? ???????? ??? ??????· ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????????????,
?? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??????????;", Tatianus Apol., Oratio ad Graecos. Chapter 26 section 4 line 1.
These examples serve to remind us of what we all already know but seem to not keep in mind when speaking about the Macedonian way of speech. That is that there were many regional dialects in Greece and that there was no "standard Greek" at the time of Perdiccas II or Alexander the Great (the Koine afterwards can be characterized as standard Greek, although the use of the major dialects (and as such sub-dialects) are attested deep into the Byzantine era). I also have offered examples that seem to insinuate that there was indeed a degree of intelligibility between them more directly than any comment we have about the Macedonian dialect. This does not mean that I suggest that Macedonian (or any of the Macedonian variations) was perfectly and immediately understandable to all. It might be easier to understand by an Aeolian or a Dorian speaker and less understandable to an Attic speaker than some other Greek dialect. Also, I have to point out the use of the word "barbarikoteron" as an adjective used by Athenians to look down on Dorian... I am amazed that this has not yet served as an argument to some idiots out there as to how the Dorians were in reality barbarians and since the Lacedaemonians were descendants of the Makednoi, then Sparta is Slav or something...
