It\'s all Greek to me (Makedonians included) ...

[Ghostmojo]

The subject of the relative Greekness of the ancient Makedonians cropped up on the thread about Alexander being antiquity's greatest commander [ <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15495&start=140">viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15495&start=140<!-- l ] and I think by common consensus it is deserving of its own thread. It had started to develop along these lines:

... Pays to keep in mind also that Philip did not have a “pacified” Greece during his forays northeast. Whilst Alexander might have had to deal with his succession he had a recently annihilated Greece facilitating his adventure northwards. Philip was much engaged in politics and warfare attempting to but Greek heads into some sort of compliance. If anything is clear about Alex’s old man it is this: he wanted Greece behind him – by political as much as military methods or belted and cowed if necessary which, in the end it was. Clearly he wanted Macedonia to be part of Greece – the part that mattered of course; the ruler – but, at heart, Greek as did Macedonian monarchs before him who had not the means to achieve it. Alexander saw it rather differently: at Thebes he demonstrated that Greece was now Macedonian; a subject for her king to rule and do not forget it ...

Which is a very interesting point and perhaps deserving of a thread all to itself.

That the Makedonians (for the most part) were Greek is generally uncontested by the majority of modern historians - language, religion, customs, culture, artwork - all attest to this. As far as I can determine, they were a branch of the Dorians (or the latter were a branch of the Makedones), and they spoke a rougher version of North West Greek and had much in common with neighbouring Epeiros. Of course their (expanding) territory also embraced non-Greek peoples like Thrakians; Illyrians; Paeonians etc. (as did Epeiros' lands) and other migratory Greeks. It is a particularly 'ancient' (as opposed to the more modern pan-Hellenic all embracing) strand of Greek mentality that had them denying each other their basic common Greekness. The cultural aloofness of for example Athenians, who even sought to deny these northern peasants any Greek nationality, is perhaps more a testament to the inate snobbery (and self-belief in the superiority) of Ionians who in many ways considered themselves to be your original indigenous Greeks. Therefore others were by definition less Greek than themselves.

There is a discussion to be developed (perhaps elsewhere) that revolves aorund how various Greek powers arose and fell. Makedon was clearly the most powerful and lasting and its grasp extended the furthest. Whether this would have happened without Philip and then Alexander is highly unlikely. However, it was merely one of a number of Greek states or territories who achieved a forced hegemony over the other Hellenes. Perhaps the earliest had been Sparta with her 'Peloponnesian League' to be followed by Athen's maritime empire and then in defeat herself once again by Sparta's hopeless attempts at trans-Aegean empire. In quick succession we have the brief dominance of Thebes before the arrival of Makedon herself. Also very brief attempts at hegemony were made by Thessaly and later Epeiros. In most cases key individuals were always at play, rather than any great desire of the popular masses. It is also interesting that somehow the various four main Greek groups had periods of hegemony as well (via their key cities or states) with Dorians (Sparta/Makedon?/Eperios?); Ionians (Athens); Aioilans (Thebes/Thessaly/Epeiros?); Achaians (later Achaia) all having a crack at dominating the others.

That the Makedonians (for the most part) were Greek is generally uncontested by modern historians - language, religion, customs, culture, artwork - all attest to this.

It is, generally, a subject well steered away from. Far too many modern ethnic and political overlays that have no bearing on the how the ancients saw things. My view above is simply an observation of the actions of Macedonian kings attempting to "Hellenise" themselves and their courts (Archealus for example). Thus I find it ironic that the southern Greeks eventually became "Macedonian".

I feel that Philip's dealings with the Amphyctions and Athens, whilst mostly politically driven, were also informed by that need for "Hellenic acceptance".

I take the well made point about snobbery but I still inwardly chuckle at thoughts of a restless Demosthenes in Athens 2004...

I don't agree that we should steer away from any such subject, and am well aware of the huge complexities of this issue - not least of course the modern problems that have been created because of it. I do take you points though.

Hellenic acceptance was critical to Philip, and Alexander also made good use of this for political ends. A pan-Hellenic enterprise against the ancient enemy to the east, really needed to be mainly composed of Greeks, led by Greeks, and in the interest of all the Greeks. However, it is my belief and one that can easily be argued and backed up, that Philip and Alexander totally deserved this acceptance. The Temenids/Argeads were Greek. The Makedonian population was not 100% Greek - but its core group was - certainly prior to its major expansion. By all standards, epithets and tests we can apply to any of the ancient Greek tribes, the Makedonians qualify - even if Demosthenes would have it differently (and thereby disgree with Herodotos!).

I am aware of strands of historic examination (Hammond included) that have sought to explore the Makedonian's 'otherness', but I don't think they really stand up to serious scrutiny. It would be just as easy to promote the differences of Dorian Spartans to Ionian Athenians and others as well. It is true that the ancients saw things differently - but by using their standards rather than our own we surely arrive at the same conclusion? Quite often you see references to Monty Python on this site. I have used it myself, and will again because there is something hugely Pythonesque about the Greek's internal strife and critiques of each other. Such a remark might not be so easily comprehendable to non-English speakers, but to those of us that occupy the Anglo-American-Australasian orbit - the remark holds true. The Life Of Brian quote "only the messiah would deny his own divinity" rings true here - as would the response ... 'well what chance does that leave me with?'

A fascinating subject in itself and one I would like to hear other's view upon, so please feel free to comment here.