10-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Found it right where you said it'd be. Nice description of single combat, although I see how you see it being relevant since the two combatants at the time are shield on shield.
"?????????? ?’ ??????? ????? ???????? ????????’ ????? ?????. ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ?? ???????? ???????? ??????’ ??????? ??????", Eur. Phoenissae, 1415
Well, they have to have taken some sort of specific actions in order to achieve what you propose. My question to you is how you think that action was terminated. If the protostates saw he was advancing too far, how would he be able to stop this advancement since the reason of this advancement was the pressure exerted on him from the rest of the file? The pressure you describe was not only applied to the enemy but to him too. Do you think that your model can be applied to a line of a thousand files and somehow make the protostates able to control their movement?
I think that all discussions and theories on othismos are anyways overrated. If othismos was so crucial during battle, if all or even most battles contained a prolonged spell of othismos we would have many more descriptions of how and when it was performed. I really believe that this is also an indirect proof that othismos was just what I described, short spells of pushing (in any stance you want) at certain moments the general would see fit. Of course a file can and will under circumstances even partially (Arrian, Ektaxis kat' Alanon) close up. This does not mean that any real pushing is involved, just supporting the back of the man in front of you. I generally am against any theory that supports a prolonged othismos. All this started when some Western historians tried to make an analogy between ancient Greek battle and American football... Of course the logic behind these theories is laughable but for some reason they permeated current ancient Greek warfare research and now we are looking for how this fabled othismos worked. Most people think that this is how hoplites really fought... A minute of spear fighting and hours of pushing, some even consider spear fighting as practically non-existent since they propose that othismos started from the time the phalanxes charged in... Of course this is not true. Even against the Persians the hoplites did not massively push... they brought down the gerra and stabbed at their enemies... Why should it be something so different from "a wall of shields pushing against its opposite at times an might even find itself acting a bit crowd-like for short periods like every other shield wall in history"? This is what it most possibly was, albeit a bit more organized than some of those other shieldwalls. Maybe the most important reason for all these exaggerations is the fact that whenever anyone sees the word "othizein" or any of its derivatives in a battle description, he automatically links it with "othismos" which, I guess at least 90% of the time is wrong.
Why should I want to advance any faster? I really think that your proposal does exert the maximum force that can be exerted. I just do not see it explaining how I can keep my ranks in line. Maybe you have a theory on that?
It must have happened orderly as everything else that has to do with the Greek phalanx. I guess that it could be performed both in unison along the phalanx and piecemeal along some units. As for the sarissa, why do you think that it could really counter othismos as you propose it? Do you think that the pressure applied on the hoplon would not be able to force back some sarissas?
What does not happen? You think that it is impossible for the ranks to break (not keep in line)? As for the overlap providing local information I fully agree with you but in order for it to matter I have to be able to do something about that. If, in your model, I, for any reason, break the line, how can I stop or get back (but I have already asked that)?
"?????????? ?’ ??????? ????? ???????? ????????’ ????? ?????. ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ?? ???????? ???????? ??????’ ??????? ??????", Eur. Phoenissae, 1415
Quote:As I have said before there is no "crowd-stance". There is only a crowd and whatever stance they get into when pushing in unison. What seems to keep getting confused is that my description of what a phalanx would look like when in full othismos is being taken as starting condition for othismos.
Well, they have to have taken some sort of specific actions in order to achieve what you propose. My question to you is how you think that action was terminated. If the protostates saw he was advancing too far, how would he be able to stop this advancement since the reason of this advancement was the pressure exerted on him from the rest of the file? The pressure you describe was not only applied to the enemy but to him too. Do you think that your model can be applied to a line of a thousand files and somehow make the protostates able to control their movement?
Quote:Now if we found a lost text by Xenophon describing side-on pushing in detail, this would pretty much cause me to disbelieve in othismos as we know it. The reason is that a crowd of hoplites face-on can produce, and more importantly survive, pressures that may not have been possible for any other troop type. A phalanx side-on cannot do much that was not also done by a great many other cultures. If hoplites did not do something that a later shield wall could not, then the special designation of "othismos" becomes frivolous, and the phalanx is simply a wall of shields that pushes against its opposite at times an might even find itself acting a bit crowd-like for short periods like every other shield wall in history.
I think that all discussions and theories on othismos are anyways overrated. If othismos was so crucial during battle, if all or even most battles contained a prolonged spell of othismos we would have many more descriptions of how and when it was performed. I really believe that this is also an indirect proof that othismos was just what I described, short spells of pushing (in any stance you want) at certain moments the general would see fit. Of course a file can and will under circumstances even partially (Arrian, Ektaxis kat' Alanon) close up. This does not mean that any real pushing is involved, just supporting the back of the man in front of you. I generally am against any theory that supports a prolonged othismos. All this started when some Western historians tried to make an analogy between ancient Greek battle and American football... Of course the logic behind these theories is laughable but for some reason they permeated current ancient Greek warfare research and now we are looking for how this fabled othismos worked. Most people think that this is how hoplites really fought... A minute of spear fighting and hours of pushing, some even consider spear fighting as practically non-existent since they propose that othismos started from the time the phalanxes charged in... Of course this is not true. Even against the Persians the hoplites did not massively push... they brought down the gerra and stabbed at their enemies... Why should it be something so different from "a wall of shields pushing against its opposite at times an might even find itself acting a bit crowd-like for short periods like every other shield wall in history"? This is what it most possibly was, albeit a bit more organized than some of those other shieldwalls. Maybe the most important reason for all these exaggerations is the fact that whenever anyone sees the word "othizein" or any of its derivatives in a battle description, he automatically links it with "othismos" which, I guess at least 90% of the time is wrong.
Quote:It is not a question of applying a "crowd" to gain one or two steps and reduce pressure, what you describe is what has to occur in a crowd. If you want to advance any faster, you have to link together such steps, which leads to a shuffling advance, but even here the pressure reduces as you advance.
Why should I want to advance any faster? I really think that your proposal does exert the maximum force that can be exerted. I just do not see it explaining how I can keep my ranks in line. Maybe you have a theory on that?
Quote:The transition from doratismos to othismos is one of the most uncertain phases on this type of battle. It is unclear exactly how the lines came together, (piecemeal, all in unison?) or how the foes could counter such a move to keep out of othismos. Obviously it need not happen the same way each time. My feeling is that the only way to avoid othismos is to be willing to give ground, or get some sarissa.
It must have happened orderly as everything else that has to do with the Greek phalanx. I guess that it could be performed both in unison along the phalanx and piecemeal along some units. As for the sarissa, why do you think that it could really counter othismos as you propose it? Do you think that the pressure applied on the hoplon would not be able to force back some sarissas?
Quote:In a true crowd this does not happen because you are all acting too much like one big fluid mass. You would have to really want to do it to make it happen. You touched on the most important thing about overlapping shields, they provide what we call "local information". This is close range, touching, that gives you knowledge of exactly where you are compared to the rank at all times. It is very similar to the type of information used by fish schools and bird flocks to keep such perfect order as they move in groups.
What does not happen? You think that it is impossible for the ranks to break (not keep in line)? As for the overlap providing local information I fully agree with you but in order for it to matter I have to be able to do something about that. If, in your model, I, for any reason, break the line, how can I stop or get back (but I have already asked that)?
