09-18-2010, 04:12 AM
Paul B,
Sorry, we didn't get any pictures, due to multiple failures to have a camera handy.
As to why you don't get rolled in when your hips are at a 45, its because in order to push with your shoulder in the shield you have to rotate the right shoulder back a bit. This presents a neat curve the aspis sits in and basically you push in a straight line from the right side through to the left shoulder. Try it with your aspis and you will see.
Cole wrote: This caused the shield to twist in my grasp, and rotate in toward my body, which increased the effect driving me up as it slid up under the force I was generating as it rotated.
Paul wrote: This confuses me, because it is just this type of rotation that should cause you to collapse into your shield under pressure, which you said did not happen. I'd need to see pictures.
This is when I am pushing square to fore in the second case, not side on. The bottom of the aspis rotates under because no matter how low you get the side on opponent can more or less match you, and because his force is coming in at porpax level and you are pushing at shoulder level, he is levering your shield either around your forearm on the porpax, or at the your shoulder
Cole wrote: The introduction of the aspis into the interface changes the dynamic between the pushers. As square to fore pushing delivers its force at shoulder level, the lower point of attack of the side on push tends to rotate the shield under.
Paul wrote: "This is occuring because you are hitting with the wrong part of the shield. Try it again and when you make contact, do so with only the upper curve of the aspis."
First, watch it Paul.
Now, the square to fore was lower overall and on the upper curve, as the diagram shows, but as my force is being delivered at shoulder level versus porpax level from the side on pusher, he has the advantage of an effectively lower point of attack. In addition, as all of his force is delivered laterally, as opposed to angled up as in square to fore, you're actually pushing yourself up and over his shield.
Paul wrote: "You should be taking all of the force on your shoulder and the left front of the chest. If there is force on the right upper chest, your shield is held wrong for what I propose. You also have to be low. The result should be that the shield is pushed down, not up."
Really? Nice in theory, but there's an equal and opposite reaction for every action, and even if you don't start on the right upper chest and shoulder, you're there right after contact.
Finally, you will recall I was low, so low that I fell over when he stepped back.
Cole wrote: Next, with spears, we found that while the side on stance allowed Christian to deliver spear strikes, the square to fore position did not, as the upper arm and shoulder were blocked by the shield, and the hips were already fully rotated square to the front.
Paul wrote: "I have done enough shield and spear play to not understand this. When you strike you end up with both shoulders forward your arm should shoot right over the downward curve of the right rim of your aspis. When you stab in 3/4 your hand does not move out forward past your shield rim?"
Except when you're square-to-fore your opponent's shield is pushing yours back into your right shoulder and upper arm. Your forearm can project the spear beyond the lead edge of the shield, but with the restriction of motion of the shoulder and upper arm the motion is short, weak, and mostly non-linear. On the other hand, the side on pusher has the freedom of motion of the entire arm to strike with.
Again, get your aspis, find a friend with one, and try it out.
Have fun.
Sorry, we didn't get any pictures, due to multiple failures to have a camera handy.
As to why you don't get rolled in when your hips are at a 45, its because in order to push with your shoulder in the shield you have to rotate the right shoulder back a bit. This presents a neat curve the aspis sits in and basically you push in a straight line from the right side through to the left shoulder. Try it with your aspis and you will see.
Cole wrote: This caused the shield to twist in my grasp, and rotate in toward my body, which increased the effect driving me up as it slid up under the force I was generating as it rotated.
Paul wrote: This confuses me, because it is just this type of rotation that should cause you to collapse into your shield under pressure, which you said did not happen. I'd need to see pictures.
This is when I am pushing square to fore in the second case, not side on. The bottom of the aspis rotates under because no matter how low you get the side on opponent can more or less match you, and because his force is coming in at porpax level and you are pushing at shoulder level, he is levering your shield either around your forearm on the porpax, or at the your shoulder
Cole wrote: The introduction of the aspis into the interface changes the dynamic between the pushers. As square to fore pushing delivers its force at shoulder level, the lower point of attack of the side on push tends to rotate the shield under.
Paul wrote: "This is occuring because you are hitting with the wrong part of the shield. Try it again and when you make contact, do so with only the upper curve of the aspis."
First, watch it Paul.
Now, the square to fore was lower overall and on the upper curve, as the diagram shows, but as my force is being delivered at shoulder level versus porpax level from the side on pusher, he has the advantage of an effectively lower point of attack. In addition, as all of his force is delivered laterally, as opposed to angled up as in square to fore, you're actually pushing yourself up and over his shield.
Paul wrote: "You should be taking all of the force on your shoulder and the left front of the chest. If there is force on the right upper chest, your shield is held wrong for what I propose. You also have to be low. The result should be that the shield is pushed down, not up."
Really? Nice in theory, but there's an equal and opposite reaction for every action, and even if you don't start on the right upper chest and shoulder, you're there right after contact.
Finally, you will recall I was low, so low that I fell over when he stepped back.
Cole wrote: Next, with spears, we found that while the side on stance allowed Christian to deliver spear strikes, the square to fore position did not, as the upper arm and shoulder were blocked by the shield, and the hips were already fully rotated square to the front.
Paul wrote: "I have done enough shield and spear play to not understand this. When you strike you end up with both shoulders forward your arm should shoot right over the downward curve of the right rim of your aspis. When you stab in 3/4 your hand does not move out forward past your shield rim?"
Except when you're square-to-fore your opponent's shield is pushing yours back into your right shoulder and upper arm. Your forearm can project the spear beyond the lead edge of the shield, but with the restriction of motion of the shoulder and upper arm the motion is short, weak, and mostly non-linear. On the other hand, the side on pusher has the freedom of motion of the entire arm to strike with.
Again, get your aspis, find a friend with one, and try it out.
Have fun.
Cole
