09-18-2010, 02:25 AM
Following on our previous efforts, we considered the relative performance of square to fore pushing versus side on pushing, as Paul B has argued that the square to fore pose for pushing as performed by football players and so forth will always overpower someone in a side-on stance.
As we are fairly close in height, Christian took up the side-on "classical" stance, which he is also the most extreme in the execution of (full 90 degree), while I adopted a square to fore stance to push up against him. I am delighted to report that at a mere 270lbs (I overestimated last time) I only outweigh him by a 110 pounds, and he will readily agree that I am significantly stronger than him. Given this mismatch, if the square to fore push is truly superior, it should have been a rout.
However, this was not the case. Despite my best efforts, from the classical stance he was able to more than stand me off. Unlike square-to-fore football player, whom I would readily expect to push his side-on opponent up or over, particular given the mismatch in weight and strength, I found myself being pushed up and back!
This picture will tend to help illustrate why that would appear to be the cause:
[attachment=1:3fmzgsyb]<!-- ia1 Othismos - Classical and Crowd Theory Oopposed.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:3fmzgsyb]
The change in expected results would seem to come from the interface. Unlike the football player, who is able to lock and bear his opponent up, the aspides move against each other, allowing no such advantage. Also, the square to fore pusher is directing his force up along the angle of the body. While a component of the force will be delivered at at shoulder level, there is also a component that will be delivered upwards. On the other hand the side-on stance delivers the force lower from the middle, as the shield is pinned at shoulder and thigh. This caused the shield to twist in my grasp, and rotate in toward my body, which increased the effect driving me up as it slid up under the force I was generating as it rotated.
All this happened with our shields covered in a double layer of painted canvas, which while smooth, are not exactly slippery. The effect could only be exacerbated if they were polished and oiled bronze.
The effect of slipping up is also a problem, as it drives the rim of the aspis into the neck in the square to fore stance. Again, rather than the bowl helping breathing the rim was hindering it.
Next, with spears, we found that while the side on stance allowed Christian to deliver spear strikes, the square to fore position did not, as the upper arm and shoulder were blocked by the shield, and the hips were already fully rotated square to the front.
As we took the experiment out to the extreme Paul showed in his "C" figure the accident happened. Christian said, "what happens if I do this?" He then slipped back a half step before I could cry out. The following resulted:
[attachment=0:3fmzgsyb]<!-- ia0 Othismos Fall.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3fmzgsyb]
Both hands and knees took a bruise, and I have a livid red scrape next to my left eye, but I managed to land well enough that I was able to get up after I got my wits back about me.
*** Conclusion ***
The introduction of the aspis into the interface changes the dynamic between the pushers. As square to fore pushing delivers its force at shoulder level, the lower point of attack of the side on push tends to rotate the shield under, and cause the pusher's own energy to direct him up and over his opponents shield, an effect increased as the two surfaces slide across one another rather than locking. Square to fore pushing is also dangerous, as the shield edge chokes the pusher, and motion on the part of the party being pushed can leave the square to fore pusher dramatically off balance. Finally, the position does not allow someone employing it to effectively wield a spear.
Have fun!
As we are fairly close in height, Christian took up the side-on "classical" stance, which he is also the most extreme in the execution of (full 90 degree), while I adopted a square to fore stance to push up against him. I am delighted to report that at a mere 270lbs (I overestimated last time) I only outweigh him by a 110 pounds, and he will readily agree that I am significantly stronger than him. Given this mismatch, if the square to fore push is truly superior, it should have been a rout.
However, this was not the case. Despite my best efforts, from the classical stance he was able to more than stand me off. Unlike square-to-fore football player, whom I would readily expect to push his side-on opponent up or over, particular given the mismatch in weight and strength, I found myself being pushed up and back!
This picture will tend to help illustrate why that would appear to be the cause:
[attachment=1:3fmzgsyb]<!-- ia1 Othismos - Classical and Crowd Theory Oopposed.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:3fmzgsyb]
The change in expected results would seem to come from the interface. Unlike the football player, who is able to lock and bear his opponent up, the aspides move against each other, allowing no such advantage. Also, the square to fore pusher is directing his force up along the angle of the body. While a component of the force will be delivered at at shoulder level, there is also a component that will be delivered upwards. On the other hand the side-on stance delivers the force lower from the middle, as the shield is pinned at shoulder and thigh. This caused the shield to twist in my grasp, and rotate in toward my body, which increased the effect driving me up as it slid up under the force I was generating as it rotated.
All this happened with our shields covered in a double layer of painted canvas, which while smooth, are not exactly slippery. The effect could only be exacerbated if they were polished and oiled bronze.
The effect of slipping up is also a problem, as it drives the rim of the aspis into the neck in the square to fore stance. Again, rather than the bowl helping breathing the rim was hindering it.
Next, with spears, we found that while the side on stance allowed Christian to deliver spear strikes, the square to fore position did not, as the upper arm and shoulder were blocked by the shield, and the hips were already fully rotated square to the front.
As we took the experiment out to the extreme Paul showed in his "C" figure the accident happened. Christian said, "what happens if I do this?" He then slipped back a half step before I could cry out. The following resulted:
[attachment=0:3fmzgsyb]<!-- ia0 Othismos Fall.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3fmzgsyb]
Both hands and knees took a bruise, and I have a livid red scrape next to my left eye, but I managed to land well enough that I was able to get up after I got my wits back about me.
*** Conclusion ***
The introduction of the aspis into the interface changes the dynamic between the pushers. As square to fore pushing delivers its force at shoulder level, the lower point of attack of the side on push tends to rotate the shield under, and cause the pusher's own energy to direct him up and over his opponents shield, an effect increased as the two surfaces slide across one another rather than locking. Square to fore pushing is also dangerous, as the shield edge chokes the pusher, and motion on the part of the party being pushed can leave the square to fore pusher dramatically off balance. Finally, the position does not allow someone employing it to effectively wield a spear.
Have fun!
Cole
