09-16-2010, 11:00 PM
People reading this would never guess I like you so much! Now back to the struggle:
This is a point I hoped to have addressed above. There are multiple ways in which the whole mechanic of entering othismos could occur. It is not so much a change of opinion as a broader presentation. Initially my concern was to show how a charge directly into othismos, as the current orthodoxy holds, is inferior to a shorter charge by densely packed ranks. As I mentioned above, once you have the ranks pulling up short, you open the possibility for extended doratismos. If, as seems to have been the case, men move into shield on shield range from spear range, their files could pack in behind them there. This would be directly analogous to the way the police came up in support when the whistle was blown in the video. Of course there are many ways to get hoplites into such a position, I don't pretend to have an exhaustive list. One last note is that it might be just as dangerous to move out of shield on shield range as it was getting into it, so there may be incentive to support the men at that range.
No, you misunderstand. This is perhaps the hardest thing I have to convey. There is no great pressure without contact, both from behind and from in front. Thus great pressure it put on the back of the front rankers of both sides, but almost no movement. No one is being "propelled" in any sense. It is more like a squeeze, and when one side cannot take it any longer they take one step back. This releases the pressure until their foes take one step forward. Now this takes place basically simultaneously, but it is enough to cause variation in pressure over time. You are confusing this with the shuffling charge I mentioned as a superior alternative to the running charge, but the situation I describe in this thread, like the crowd video, is where the men are already in contact with the enemy. The heart of the system has always been one file pushing against another by leaning- this goes back to my first article. The only reason you need files beside them is that the other files help them stay in line. One thing that I may finally be able to show you in this video is that you don't need lateral boundaries like walls. If men in a file in a dense crowd with no boundaries tried to push out to the sides they would have to compress them crowd in that direction to make room. Just like when the police in the video try to push into a disorganized crowd, the act of pushing turns the crowd into a solid wall on that side of the file, preventing the man moving out of file. Only near the edges of the formation will the crowd be able to give way and allow such movement. This is why the edges and rear of the formation are not in a "crowd", and must actively resist pushing in their direction. Pushing to the right seems to have been a common feature of these formations for a variety of reasons, but holding them back on the right might require you to station your officers on that flank.
Quote:My apologies.....you did indeed concede that a co-ordinated push by a whole phalanx was impossible long ago in our debates - though you began by advocating a 'mass-shove' by a phalanx......when I look back, I note that your hypothesis has evolved considerably, from a 'mass-shove' by a whole 'crowd/phalanx' packed belly-to-back unable to do anything but shuffle forward, to a much more dynamic 'leaning in/domino' model, and now, apparently...
This is a point I hoped to have addressed above. There are multiple ways in which the whole mechanic of entering othismos could occur. It is not so much a change of opinion as a broader presentation. Initially my concern was to show how a charge directly into othismos, as the current orthodoxy holds, is inferior to a shorter charge by densely packed ranks. As I mentioned above, once you have the ranks pulling up short, you open the possibility for extended doratismos. If, as seems to have been the case, men move into shield on shield range from spear range, their files could pack in behind them there. This would be directly analogous to the way the police came up in support when the whistle was blown in the video. Of course there are many ways to get hoplites into such a position, I don't pretend to have an exhaustive list. One last note is that it might be just as dangerous to move out of shield on shield range as it was getting into it, so there may be incentive to support the men at that range.
Quote:Where in the crowd video did you see a front rank policeman being propelled into the crowd out of control? It is the file that follows its leader in this example.....with no pressure at all on the leading rank ??? Subsequent ranks don't 'push' into the leader's back ?? Where is the irresistible co-ordinated 'crowd push' generating "thousands of pounds of pressure" like a crowd disaster in a football ground or pop concert causing asphyxiation, but for their aspides ( incidently only occurring in confined spaces) that your hypothesis began with? Now we are down to small groups or individual files 'shoving' by 'leaning in' - but not exerting pressure on the leading ranks?
No, you misunderstand. This is perhaps the hardest thing I have to convey. There is no great pressure without contact, both from behind and from in front. Thus great pressure it put on the back of the front rankers of both sides, but almost no movement. No one is being "propelled" in any sense. It is more like a squeeze, and when one side cannot take it any longer they take one step back. This releases the pressure until their foes take one step forward. Now this takes place basically simultaneously, but it is enough to cause variation in pressure over time. You are confusing this with the shuffling charge I mentioned as a superior alternative to the running charge, but the situation I describe in this thread, like the crowd video, is where the men are already in contact with the enemy. The heart of the system has always been one file pushing against another by leaning- this goes back to my first article. The only reason you need files beside them is that the other files help them stay in line. One thing that I may finally be able to show you in this video is that you don't need lateral boundaries like walls. If men in a file in a dense crowd with no boundaries tried to push out to the sides they would have to compress them crowd in that direction to make room. Just like when the police in the video try to push into a disorganized crowd, the act of pushing turns the crowd into a solid wall on that side of the file, preventing the man moving out of file. Only near the edges of the formation will the crowd be able to give way and allow such movement. This is why the edges and rear of the formation are not in a "crowd", and must actively resist pushing in their direction. Pushing to the right seems to have been a common feature of these formations for a variety of reasons, but holding them back on the right might require you to station your officers on that flank.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
