Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Macedonian Soldier Stele
#59
Ruben wrote:
Quote:What I'm particularly curious to read about:

The elephant tower being introduced in 290 by Demetrius Poliorcetes instead of by Pyrrhus.

The "Seleucid" army of Ptolemy Ceraunos.

And I'm particularly interested in his treatment of the cavalry thureos in Greece prior to Pyrrhus, since I've done a lot of research on the thureos and its introduction into Greece and I've not yet found proof that it was in use by Greeks before 274 BC (either by cavalry or infantry). However, I think this is just a confused description of his argument, and when he writes of the cavalry thureos he instead just means cavalry shields in general, since in the article Juhel discusses proof that the aspis was in use among cavalry before 274 BC, but specifically contrasts that with the thureos! However, going by the evidence he cites in the article, he seems to have a pretty weak argument. His sole piece of evidence besides Nikanor's stele is a terracotta figurine from 4th c. BC Cyprus carrying an aspis. Unfortunately, this is neither proof of the thureos being in use before 274 BC, nor of the use of the cavalry shield in Greece (unless he wants to make a very strained argument that evidence from Cyprus supports its use on mainland Greece).

I'll wait to judge until I can see the final publication, though.

Thanks for posting the link to the abstract of Juhel's thesis. It would seem we are both a little skeptical of some of Juhel's (likely) conclusions. From the article and the abstract, one gets the impression that Juhel wants to paint Demetrius Poliorcetes as a sort of Hellenistic "Marius", crediting him with several reforms to equipment etc ! ( but we shall have to wait and see). FWIW, I entirely agree with you regarding the introduction of the 'Thureos' into Greece.

As to the introduction of cavalry shields generally, and specifically 'aspides', doubtless a case may be made from the fact that Tarantines carrying them (as we know from coins) first served in Macedonian Armies under Antigonus Monopthalmus in 317 BC (Diodorus XIX.29 ), so perhaps Macedonian cavalry began using them before Pyrrhus' return from Italy in 275 BC, when he is later known to have carried one, or else they could have been adopted in the form of the 'Thureos' following the Celtic invasion of Brennus in 279 BC.....

One factor implying the earlier date is that both types seem to have been carried, though the 'thureos' type quickly seems to have become dominant.
On the other hand, the early Third C Kazanluk paintings, which show 'shieldless' Thracian cavalry have been used (by Duncan Head) as evidence that shields were not widespread at this time, favouring a later date for widespread use..... Shielded cavalry invariably used javelins, or 'longche', but unshielded Macedonian 'xystophoroi' armed with the 12 ft 'Xyston' and body armour at least continued in service, apparently, until the second C BC. Further East, their un-shielded compatriots in Seleucid service became even heavier, riding partially armoured horses and adopting 'manica' type armguards ( see pergamum reliefs), 'cataphract' style under Eastern influence....... whoops! Off-topic! Better stop there.... Smile D
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Johnny Shumate - 10-17-2009, 03:43 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Archelaos - 10-17-2009, 04:28 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Johnny Shumate - 10-17-2009, 04:32 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Johnny Shumate - 10-17-2009, 06:15 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 08:13 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 08:44 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 09:00 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 09:21 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 09:26 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 10:21 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 11:06 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 11:17 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 11:46 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 10-19-2009, 12:23 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by PMBardunias - 10-19-2009, 02:39 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Fco Matias Bueno - 12-13-2009, 01:39 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-13-2009, 04:42 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-13-2009, 07:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-13-2009, 08:14 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-13-2009, 09:17 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 12:04 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 01:46 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-14-2009, 02:43 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-14-2009, 04:05 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 05:49 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Ghostmojo - 12-14-2009, 08:44 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 10:05 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Ghostmojo - 12-14-2009, 11:33 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 11:53 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 02:17 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-15-2009, 03:08 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 03:43 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 03:54 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-15-2009, 04:17 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-15-2009, 05:56 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 06:12 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-15-2009, 06:38 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-15-2009, 06:45 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 06:53 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-15-2009, 10:58 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-16-2009, 06:16 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-16-2009, 06:36 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-16-2009, 06:54 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-16-2009, 01:49 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-16-2009, 04:00 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-16-2009, 04:53 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-16-2009, 11:23 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 12:37 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 01:19 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 02:15 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 03:12 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 05:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 06:33 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 09:05 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 06:41 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-18-2009, 01:24 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-18-2009, 02:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-18-2009, 05:34 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-18-2009, 07:17 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-18-2009, 06:22 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-18-2009, 07:01 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-18-2009, 10:57 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-19-2009, 08:01 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-19-2009, 08:46 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-19-2009, 11:19 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-19-2009, 11:32 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-21-2009, 02:49 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-21-2009, 04:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-21-2009, 07:31 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-21-2009, 09:55 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by D B Campbell - 12-21-2009, 01:34 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by PMBardunias - 12-21-2009, 07:43 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 12:42 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-22-2009, 01:23 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 01:49 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 02:32 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 07:44 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 08:11 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 09:59 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 11:04 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 12:31 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 01:21 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 10:15 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-23-2009, 10:33 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-24-2009, 08:14 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-28-2009, 07:12 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-28-2009, 04:52 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-29-2009, 08:34 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-29-2009, 08:44 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-29-2009, 08:52 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-29-2009, 07:47 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-31-2009, 07:31 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 01-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by keravnos - 01-23-2010, 07:44 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 01-23-2010, 10:03 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by keravnos - 01-23-2010, 11:54 AM

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Macedonian soldier helm ? Uther 11 4,076 07-04-2008, 09:11 PM
Last Post: Kallimachos

Forum Jump: