11-12-2009, 07:39 PM
Salve, Rumo
We seem to be wandering furthur from the "Getae" problem. The Goffart-Wolfram debate is one of historicities and idealologies, and we readers tend to believe one or the other. I follow Wolfram's ideas on Gothic origins. To me there is an incredibly standard etymology in the Scandian "Got-Gut," both deriving before the "h," which then spread from Germanic languages into Celtic, Britonic, Welsh, and finally into modern English. But people can believe what they want. Etymology is elective, but never specifically "right" or "wrong."
Now let's look at Goffart's amazing postulation in regard to oral history: "The French of today can choose to descend from Lascaux cave people or Gallo-Celts or Franks or none of the above; the English can descend from Stonehenge builders or Celto-Britons or Saxons or Normans. These are learned choices."
How can he say that? There is no oral tradition linking the French to the Lascaux cave people. "Lascaux" in an archaeological term. And no way can the English descend from Stonehenge builders through any form of "history," be it oral or written. Goffart gets an F on this argument because there are no "learned choices." He talks about apples and figs.
Evidently Wolfram said,"there exists an ethnic memory which can reach back over many generations." I agree, but would rather call it "cultural memory." It can't be proven historically, but it certainly exists, and someday when we grow up spirtitually we'll discover how it hides within us. It's why the Alans and Britons believed that "Alanus" was the "first" Indo-European man. This is folk memory, yes, but it's incredibly old. By the same token Layamon's Brut gave us "Argante" as the female Briton-English keeper of the sword, and the HervarSaga gave us "Argantar" as the male version. These two almost identical written traditions arrived from an incredibly old oral record. Not too "choosy" a phenomenon. And they illustrate the power of ancient traditions.
However, here's a point in Goffart's favor. "Wolfram needs to share with us how he knows this. Certain names (such as 'Goth') 'mark their bearers as reborn divine ancestors'; Wolfram affirms this often, but without disclosing what makes it true." He's correct. Wolfram has this tendency, and it's incredibly maddening. But it doesn't make him wrong all of the time, only some of the time.
I said, "Many of these ritual swords were made by the Goths themselves, others by the Sarmatians, and still others by a Black Sea tribe known as the Chalybes. The finished blade was called "chalibis" by the Romans."
And you added, "It should be noted however that Chalybes lived somewhere on the south-eastern shores of Black Sea (Strabo, XI.14.5.), south of Caucasus. Herodotus (I.28) lists them among the Anatolian nations conquered by Croesus. The Latin [i]chalybs is rather a borrowing of the Greek ?????[/i]
That's good research, and you get an A. The Iranian Chalybes settled in the exact area once dominated by the Hittites. And we find in the wondrous treasures of King Tut a beautiful Hittite dagger forged from iron, a date that generally precedes the normal "iron age." But the Chalybes, the inventors of chalibis, carried the art to its highest-- now imitated by modern smiths. They lived on the popular trade road that ended across the Bosphorus in Constantinople. Back in the Chalybean days, young journeymen traveled to the iron-rich mounts of the Chalybes to learn the craft, much like a student now goes to college. In this manner, the technique of forging chalibis spread out in Semitic, Sarmatian, and Gothic societies. That's why the word was both famous in Greek and Latin.
We don't know when the direct method was lost, but it was supplanted by "Damascus" steel. The Chalybes themselves never died out. They became attacted to the Shah. In the early 1970s when the Shah ran into trouble, many Chalybes fled west. In my home town we have Taki Chalybe, and two towns away we have Fatah Chalybe. The clan never died out. So I wasn't talking about any steppe origin of the Goths, but was describing the adoption of Chalybean sword-making methods by other cultural groups.
Oh dear. I hope you really didn't mean that. Without a standard (imposed) language, the Roman troops and cavalries could never have conquered the territories they did. And we wouldn't be discussing these matters on RAT.
hock:
We seem to be wandering furthur from the "Getae" problem. The Goffart-Wolfram debate is one of historicities and idealologies, and we readers tend to believe one or the other. I follow Wolfram's ideas on Gothic origins. To me there is an incredibly standard etymology in the Scandian "Got-Gut," both deriving before the "h," which then spread from Germanic languages into Celtic, Britonic, Welsh, and finally into modern English. But people can believe what they want. Etymology is elective, but never specifically "right" or "wrong."
Now let's look at Goffart's amazing postulation in regard to oral history: "The French of today can choose to descend from Lascaux cave people or Gallo-Celts or Franks or none of the above; the English can descend from Stonehenge builders or Celto-Britons or Saxons or Normans. These are learned choices."
How can he say that? There is no oral tradition linking the French to the Lascaux cave people. "Lascaux" in an archaeological term. And no way can the English descend from Stonehenge builders through any form of "history," be it oral or written. Goffart gets an F on this argument because there are no "learned choices." He talks about apples and figs.
Evidently Wolfram said,"there exists an ethnic memory which can reach back over many generations." I agree, but would rather call it "cultural memory." It can't be proven historically, but it certainly exists, and someday when we grow up spirtitually we'll discover how it hides within us. It's why the Alans and Britons believed that "Alanus" was the "first" Indo-European man. This is folk memory, yes, but it's incredibly old. By the same token Layamon's Brut gave us "Argante" as the female Briton-English keeper of the sword, and the HervarSaga gave us "Argantar" as the male version. These two almost identical written traditions arrived from an incredibly old oral record. Not too "choosy" a phenomenon. And they illustrate the power of ancient traditions.
However, here's a point in Goffart's favor. "Wolfram needs to share with us how he knows this. Certain names (such as 'Goth') 'mark their bearers as reborn divine ancestors'; Wolfram affirms this often, but without disclosing what makes it true." He's correct. Wolfram has this tendency, and it's incredibly maddening. But it doesn't make him wrong all of the time, only some of the time.
Quote:Also some arguments you put forward seem to support rather a migration from Scythia to Scandinavia, not viceversa (e.g. Wolfram's "sword incarnation").
I said, "Many of these ritual swords were made by the Goths themselves, others by the Sarmatians, and still others by a Black Sea tribe known as the Chalybes. The finished blade was called "chalibis" by the Romans."
And you added, "It should be noted however that Chalybes lived somewhere on the south-eastern shores of Black Sea (Strabo, XI.14.5.), south of Caucasus. Herodotus (I.28) lists them among the Anatolian nations conquered by Croesus. The Latin [i]chalybs is rather a borrowing of the Greek ?????[/i]
That's good research, and you get an A. The Iranian Chalybes settled in the exact area once dominated by the Hittites. And we find in the wondrous treasures of King Tut a beautiful Hittite dagger forged from iron, a date that generally precedes the normal "iron age." But the Chalybes, the inventors of chalibis, carried the art to its highest-- now imitated by modern smiths. They lived on the popular trade road that ended across the Bosphorus in Constantinople. Back in the Chalybean days, young journeymen traveled to the iron-rich mounts of the Chalybes to learn the craft, much like a student now goes to college. In this manner, the technique of forging chalibis spread out in Semitic, Sarmatian, and Gothic societies. That's why the word was both famous in Greek and Latin.
We don't know when the direct method was lost, but it was supplanted by "Damascus" steel. The Chalybes themselves never died out. They became attacted to the Shah. In the early 1970s when the Shah ran into trouble, many Chalybes fled west. In my home town we have Taki Chalybe, and two towns away we have Fatah Chalybe. The clan never died out. So I wasn't talking about any steppe origin of the Goths, but was describing the adoption of Chalybean sword-making methods by other cultural groups.
Quote:But I don't agree that any army needs an uniform language. Having bi(poly)lingual commanders is enough.
Oh dear. I hope you really didn't mean that. Without a standard (imposed) language, the Roman troops and cavalries could never have conquered the territories they did. And we wouldn't be discussing these matters on RAT.
hock:
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
