Continuity of Greek shields

[Kineas]

You can see why you would not choose this position if spear fencing at arms length, but in the press most of the vulnerable areas are lost as targets to your foe anyway.
If you cannot get into this position, it makes me think your porpax might be too far to the left- the widest diameter of the shield should be over the elbow, not the porpax, and it should be very uncomfortable to get this under your chin. Send me a pic of the front of you doing this and I'll give my 2 cents worth.

**EDIT** I just jumped over to that thread that shows your shields. As I feared the porpax is in the geometric center. This was a topic of another thread once and perhaps may need more discussion, but I think evidence shows that the porpax was off-set to the right so that the elbow was in the geometric center of the shield. This could be the problem. And you may have just answered why it is offset!

Paul, with all due respect, off-center porpakes occur in less than 15% of art. lest we be confuced by art, they also occur in about 15% of culpture to which I have access. Let me be clear--I'm an amateur historian without immediate access to the BM or Greece... although I'll fix that soo. but I do have viratually everyone of Boardman's books and the entire "Greek Sculpture int he Archaic" series and while I see some, I don't see enought o warrant your theory.

I am coming to agree with Giannis that the occasional off-center porpax is there because the man had too short a forearm to support the size of shield he needed to fight. But I have ot say, as the guy in the debate who has fought with an aspis (!) that an off center porpax would be quite painful on the arm--think of the torque.

I'll note without pressing the issue that Boarden and other art-hirtoans suggest that the off center porpax is an artifact of spatial awareness. Myself, i think that that way madness lies--once we start playing that game, there is no "fact" and everything is supposition.

But Paul, you can't be suggesting that all porpakes were off center. You can't. That would be contrary to the evidence, which is pretty widespread, and also contrary to logic. Just by way of being inclusive, I counted porpakes that were on Archaic vases in Boardman. There's two off center for more than forty that are EXACTLY on center. I'd like to note that if an archaic red figure artist wanted to show and off center porpax, he would have--and could. And very occasionally did...

What about the Basel shield? How come that's never mentioned?

I am not anti-othismos. But The off-center porpax is, as Giannis says, the result of a handful of short-forearmed men. It makes sense, for instance, that Athena have one, as she is a tall woman... tee hee.

All this is BTW, because my problem is with the moment of othismos. With my legs planted and my body properly aligned, I can push five--probably all eight--of your "square on" hoplites anywhere I want. Try it as a tug-of-war, Paul--no aspides required. Have ten strong men adopt the stance you've outlined on a rope. Then invite one even modestly strong man to pull. Since the ten "othismos" guys can't exert any force at all because of the alignment of their hips, the one will pull them all over.