08-16-2002, 11:45 AM
<b><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> I am very suspicious about new theories that tend to dispel completely the previous ones, instead of adding new elements.<hr><br>
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New? :-) As you will note, the case <b> against</b> the Othismos was made as early as 1942. It's just that historians like Hanson tend to ignore counter-arguements.<br>
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As far as I know, there hasn't been a single paper - including Hanson - who has addressed the valid problems raised in that paper. The Goldsworthy paper is mainly a reiteration of all the reasons why the Othismos/rugby scrum theory makes absolutely no sense.<br>
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<b><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> If I recall, Hansens talks also about the intense fear before battle. What were they afraid of, then?<hr><br>
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Wouldn't you be afraid if you were going into stabbing range of a bunch of looneys with long pointy sticks? I would.<br>
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<b><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> What is it that the greek vases describe when they show two groups of hoplites walking against each other, spear at the ready?<hr><br>
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Combat, what else?<br>
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Sorry - I don't have the time and energy for a lengthy discussion about this right now. Get the Goldsworthy paper or any of his books; they usually explain his view of warfare.<br>
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Or check the AncMed mailing list on Yahoo - there was a long discussion on "Energy use in battle" and "The Push Theory" back in February. The arguements essentially boiled down to:<br>
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Othismos/Push Theory Proponents: Ordinary Humans are so stupid that they will willingly walk into a wall of sharp pointy objects. This is where Hanson wants us to believe that the Greeks were a "special" people because they were "free" men(and interestingly, he wants us to believe that the Western world has retained that same "special" quality down through the millenia).<br>
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The Anti-Push Lobby:Ordinary Humans are too damn scared of losing their lives to be that stupid; WW1 notwithstanding (there is a difference between walking unto a pike and walking in a lead-filled space).<br>
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As usual, the Push theory proponents failed to explain a whole bunch of things; like just how an ancient army avoided having most of its front line killed within a few seconds of combat starting, and other tiny details like that. <p>Strategy<br>
Designer/Developer<br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ustrategym.showPublicProfile?language=EN>StrategyM</A> at: 8/16/02 2:34:30 pm<br></i>
<br>
New? :-) As you will note, the case <b> against</b> the Othismos was made as early as 1942. It's just that historians like Hanson tend to ignore counter-arguements.<br>
<br>
As far as I know, there hasn't been a single paper - including Hanson - who has addressed the valid problems raised in that paper. The Goldsworthy paper is mainly a reiteration of all the reasons why the Othismos/rugby scrum theory makes absolutely no sense.<br>
<br>
<b><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> If I recall, Hansens talks also about the intense fear before battle. What were they afraid of, then?<hr><br>
<br>
Wouldn't you be afraid if you were going into stabbing range of a bunch of looneys with long pointy sticks? I would.<br>
<br>
<b><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> What is it that the greek vases describe when they show two groups of hoplites walking against each other, spear at the ready?<hr><br>
<br>
Combat, what else?<br>
<br>
Sorry - I don't have the time and energy for a lengthy discussion about this right now. Get the Goldsworthy paper or any of his books; they usually explain his view of warfare.<br>
<br>
Or check the AncMed mailing list on Yahoo - there was a long discussion on "Energy use in battle" and "The Push Theory" back in February. The arguements essentially boiled down to:<br>
<br>
Othismos/Push Theory Proponents: Ordinary Humans are so stupid that they will willingly walk into a wall of sharp pointy objects. This is where Hanson wants us to believe that the Greeks were a "special" people because they were "free" men(and interestingly, he wants us to believe that the Western world has retained that same "special" quality down through the millenia).<br>
<br>
The Anti-Push Lobby:Ordinary Humans are too damn scared of losing their lives to be that stupid; WW1 notwithstanding (there is a difference between walking unto a pike and walking in a lead-filled space).<br>
<br>
As usual, the Push theory proponents failed to explain a whole bunch of things; like just how an ancient army avoided having most of its front line killed within a few seconds of combat starting, and other tiny details like that. <p>Strategy<br>
Designer/Developer<br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ustrategym.showPublicProfile?language=EN>StrategyM</A> at: 8/16/02 2:34:30 pm<br></i>
