03-29-2005, 08:42 AM
Salvete<br>
<br>
A Hen:<br>
I think, the night retreat would be the best choice, if properly managed. Crassus failed in this case, for his army split up and isolated units were massacred by Parthians.<br>
To form a rearguard would be another possibility if he had his cavalry still at hand. However I think the cavalry should primarily keep the horse archers away. Crassus during the combat before nightfall and Antonius during his retrat from Parthia proved that legionaries in good order were able to repel or even beat the cataphracts. The archers would be more dangerous during the retreat, because the soldier cannot hide behind his shield properly when moving.<br>
<br>
John:<br>
"When I say 20,000 casualties, I mean dead and wounded."<br>
<br>
I see. But this doesn't change the fact, that a great number of the Romans were killed during the retreat and not in the direct battle of the previous day. Moreover, cca 4 000 soldiers were killed with the young Publius Crassus. Plutarchos says there were cca 4 000 wounded left behind in the camp when the rest of the Roman army departed under cover of the night. If we add to them say 2 000 dead (which I think is a quite high and unprobable number - some hundred would be more likely), then the Parthian horse archers were, after almost whole day of shooting under very favourable circumstances, responsible for just 6 000 casualties, from which the majority were wounded, probably to the limbs, and if they could reach safety, many of them would recover. What evidence do these numbers give about the effectiveness of the composite bow and the Roman defensive kit? I think it's quite clear. In most cases just the shield was enough to prevent the legionary from being killed or wounded. When the shield failed, the legionary could expect either nothing (if the arrow missed his limbs, throat and face) or a wound to his limbs (most likely) face and throat (which could lead to immediate or quick death). If he didn't hide himself behind his shield, again he could be hit to his limbs, throat and face (which would disable him) or to the armoured part of his body, when I believe in most cases the armour would endure, but sometimes the arrow could go through and wound the man. The penetration of the shield and armour at the same time I would call a miracle, which of course could happen, but very very rarely.<br>
<br>
"entrenching tactics the Romans used which called for a berm, a ditch and obstacles like stakes, spikes and pits. Such preparation could have minimized the Parthian shot tactic, forcing the Parthians to shoot from a greater range, with less effect."<br>
<br>
There aren't many trees on Parthian deserts, from which to make obstacles. Look at these pictures of todays Carrhae (Harran):<br>
[url=http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/harran/harran_plain.JPG" target="top]Harran plain[/url]<br>
<br>
[url=http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/harran/harran_house.JPG" target="top]Harran 2[/url]<br>
<br>
Greetings<br>
Alexandr<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=alexandrk>Alexandr K</A> at: 3/29/05 10:45 am<br></i>
<br>
A Hen:<br>
I think, the night retreat would be the best choice, if properly managed. Crassus failed in this case, for his army split up and isolated units were massacred by Parthians.<br>
To form a rearguard would be another possibility if he had his cavalry still at hand. However I think the cavalry should primarily keep the horse archers away. Crassus during the combat before nightfall and Antonius during his retrat from Parthia proved that legionaries in good order were able to repel or even beat the cataphracts. The archers would be more dangerous during the retreat, because the soldier cannot hide behind his shield properly when moving.<br>
<br>
John:<br>
"When I say 20,000 casualties, I mean dead and wounded."<br>
<br>
I see. But this doesn't change the fact, that a great number of the Romans were killed during the retreat and not in the direct battle of the previous day. Moreover, cca 4 000 soldiers were killed with the young Publius Crassus. Plutarchos says there were cca 4 000 wounded left behind in the camp when the rest of the Roman army departed under cover of the night. If we add to them say 2 000 dead (which I think is a quite high and unprobable number - some hundred would be more likely), then the Parthian horse archers were, after almost whole day of shooting under very favourable circumstances, responsible for just 6 000 casualties, from which the majority were wounded, probably to the limbs, and if they could reach safety, many of them would recover. What evidence do these numbers give about the effectiveness of the composite bow and the Roman defensive kit? I think it's quite clear. In most cases just the shield was enough to prevent the legionary from being killed or wounded. When the shield failed, the legionary could expect either nothing (if the arrow missed his limbs, throat and face) or a wound to his limbs (most likely) face and throat (which could lead to immediate or quick death). If he didn't hide himself behind his shield, again he could be hit to his limbs, throat and face (which would disable him) or to the armoured part of his body, when I believe in most cases the armour would endure, but sometimes the arrow could go through and wound the man. The penetration of the shield and armour at the same time I would call a miracle, which of course could happen, but very very rarely.<br>
<br>
"entrenching tactics the Romans used which called for a berm, a ditch and obstacles like stakes, spikes and pits. Such preparation could have minimized the Parthian shot tactic, forcing the Parthians to shoot from a greater range, with less effect."<br>
<br>
There aren't many trees on Parthian deserts, from which to make obstacles. Look at these pictures of todays Carrhae (Harran):<br>
[url=http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/harran/harran_plain.JPG" target="top]Harran plain[/url]<br>
<br>
[url=http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/harran/harran_house.JPG" target="top]Harran 2[/url]<br>
<br>
Greetings<br>
Alexandr<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=alexandrk>Alexandr K</A> at: 3/29/05 10:45 am<br></i>
