03-12-2005, 03:03 PM
Hi Graham,<br>
And thank you for the answer. It would be indeed unrealistic to assume that we know everything about ancient armour. The recent sale of the Axel Guttmann collection is there to prove it, with the appearance of a number of Roman helmets of a type itherto unknown. And I am pretty sure that, unfortunately, some unknown pieces are still deeply buried in museums' store rooms or hidden in private collections.<br>
The suggestion that banded armour originated in the Orient is perfectly valid since the famous Pergamon hellenistic relief show what appears to be a manica --and a masked helmet BTW.<br>
We may thus assume the same system was used for body armour. I remember also a statue of a god, I think in Palmyra, wearing a cuirass that seems to be made of three girdle loops although the material of the cuirass --metal or organic- cannot of course be determined.<br>
The pedestal of Trajan's Column also show sets of banded armour that are definitely not roman.<br>
I also know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but well.. I'd rather wait for the appearance of evidence concerning bronze segmentata. As for that painting depicting a praetorian I doubt it is a praetorian since there is a score of sculptural evidence to show what they looked like in parade armour. I am convinced that those reliefs are not a "symbolic" or "conventional" representation and that they show the real thing, give or take a few minor artistic conventions like the smaller cheek guards.<br>
Besides, I don't see why a praetorian, would carry a sarissa..<br>
That character looks like your run of the mill "greek warrior" type as seen by the Romans. Could be Alexander (the sarissa), could be Aeneas.. Could be anyone greek..<br>
As for the phalangite, well, Cassius Dio, a military man, wrote this: "He organized a phalanx, sixteen thousand men, of Macedonians alone, named it Alexander’s phalanx and equipped it with the arms which warriors had used in his day. These were: a helmet of raw oxhide, a three-ply linen breastplate, a bronze shield, long pike, short spear, high boots, sword."<br>
That is puzzling, I admit. But it is risky, I think, to base a reconstruction on a literary description (what kind of rawhide helmet, for instance) and a mosaic.<br>
...Which BTW, I would be very grateful to see posted here, since I don't know the piece.<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/12/05 4:56 pm<br></i>
And thank you for the answer. It would be indeed unrealistic to assume that we know everything about ancient armour. The recent sale of the Axel Guttmann collection is there to prove it, with the appearance of a number of Roman helmets of a type itherto unknown. And I am pretty sure that, unfortunately, some unknown pieces are still deeply buried in museums' store rooms or hidden in private collections.<br>
The suggestion that banded armour originated in the Orient is perfectly valid since the famous Pergamon hellenistic relief show what appears to be a manica --and a masked helmet BTW.<br>
We may thus assume the same system was used for body armour. I remember also a statue of a god, I think in Palmyra, wearing a cuirass that seems to be made of three girdle loops although the material of the cuirass --metal or organic- cannot of course be determined.<br>
The pedestal of Trajan's Column also show sets of banded armour that are definitely not roman.<br>
I also know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but well.. I'd rather wait for the appearance of evidence concerning bronze segmentata. As for that painting depicting a praetorian I doubt it is a praetorian since there is a score of sculptural evidence to show what they looked like in parade armour. I am convinced that those reliefs are not a "symbolic" or "conventional" representation and that they show the real thing, give or take a few minor artistic conventions like the smaller cheek guards.<br>
Besides, I don't see why a praetorian, would carry a sarissa..<br>
That character looks like your run of the mill "greek warrior" type as seen by the Romans. Could be Alexander (the sarissa), could be Aeneas.. Could be anyone greek..<br>
As for the phalangite, well, Cassius Dio, a military man, wrote this: "He organized a phalanx, sixteen thousand men, of Macedonians alone, named it Alexander’s phalanx and equipped it with the arms which warriors had used in his day. These were: a helmet of raw oxhide, a three-ply linen breastplate, a bronze shield, long pike, short spear, high boots, sword."<br>
That is puzzling, I admit. But it is risky, I think, to base a reconstruction on a literary description (what kind of rawhide helmet, for instance) and a mosaic.<br>
...Which BTW, I would be very grateful to see posted here, since I don't know the piece.<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/12/05 4:56 pm<br></i>
