07-14-2008, 07:04 PM
John Roberts,
Since you have been working on the Conquistadors lately, do want to take this on the Aztecs, etc? Do you have H.L. Peterson's Arms And Armor In North America? If you don't I know where a copy is available.
To the rest of you:
In the 1970s a friend who made obsidian arrow heads constructed a few reed arrows such as would have been used by the Pueblo that Coronado encountered. I heard the stories about obsidian cutting armor which was taken for granted along with the metal image of the Conquistadors wearing a breastplate and morion. For the most part, this image has been taken by most New World archaeologist at face value without much real inquiry.
First, the morion seems not to have existed in Europe in it's developed until about 1550ish. Also Spanish armor terms are a bit generic and don't seem to have the rigidity of moder classifications. It seems more than likely that extensive armor for the arms and torso was in constant use in the Americas even after it went out of favor in Europe. The Burgonet with buff was probably wide spread.
Why all this? Well I am glad you asked.
I have a suit of modern plate that is fairly well copied after a full suit of about 1540. While having a grad school kegger we got to discussing arrows against armor, blah blah blah. After a few beers I let my friend fire a few arrows at it with a 10 lb. bow, the usual weight of the Pueblo bows. All the arrows glanced off and were broken at the notch. (DISCLAIMER: Do not do this your self, or attempt to actually wear the armor. This was a dumb stunt I did in the 1970s, and was not a scientific, or controlled in any way. )
The use of plate mail, and dressed deer hide, along with cotton quilt seems to work fine. All of these worn in combination with plate and/or mail. Not all bows were as weak as the Pueblo bow and variations exist in equipment from group to group and from person to person. (There is a little evidence that a few women were along some expeditions.)
I can quote from Baltasar Lopez, the de Soto investigation narrative, The Gentleman of Elvas , and De Vaca, and a few of the Coronado narratives if anyone really wants.
That this topic is in Roman Military History makes me assume that it is to construct known outcomes in order to use analogy. If so, then based on what I have read, I would advocate the Segmentata and associated helmets as effective against arrows, particularly if the are from plunging fire. I also advocate mail with a subarmalis, however it's spelled, as probably effective.
R. Izard
Since you have been working on the Conquistadors lately, do want to take this on the Aztecs, etc? Do you have H.L. Peterson's Arms And Armor In North America? If you don't I know where a copy is available.
To the rest of you:
In the 1970s a friend who made obsidian arrow heads constructed a few reed arrows such as would have been used by the Pueblo that Coronado encountered. I heard the stories about obsidian cutting armor which was taken for granted along with the metal image of the Conquistadors wearing a breastplate and morion. For the most part, this image has been taken by most New World archaeologist at face value without much real inquiry.
First, the morion seems not to have existed in Europe in it's developed until about 1550ish. Also Spanish armor terms are a bit generic and don't seem to have the rigidity of moder classifications. It seems more than likely that extensive armor for the arms and torso was in constant use in the Americas even after it went out of favor in Europe. The Burgonet with buff was probably wide spread.
Why all this? Well I am glad you asked.
I have a suit of modern plate that is fairly well copied after a full suit of about 1540. While having a grad school kegger we got to discussing arrows against armor, blah blah blah. After a few beers I let my friend fire a few arrows at it with a 10 lb. bow, the usual weight of the Pueblo bows. All the arrows glanced off and were broken at the notch. (DISCLAIMER: Do not do this your self, or attempt to actually wear the armor. This was a dumb stunt I did in the 1970s, and was not a scientific, or controlled in any way. )
The use of plate mail, and dressed deer hide, along with cotton quilt seems to work fine. All of these worn in combination with plate and/or mail. Not all bows were as weak as the Pueblo bow and variations exist in equipment from group to group and from person to person. (There is a little evidence that a few women were along some expeditions.)
I can quote from Baltasar Lopez, the de Soto investigation narrative, The Gentleman of Elvas , and De Vaca, and a few of the Coronado narratives if anyone really wants.
That this topic is in Roman Military History makes me assume that it is to construct known outcomes in order to use analogy. If so, then based on what I have read, I would advocate the Segmentata and associated helmets as effective against arrows, particularly if the are from plunging fire. I also advocate mail with a subarmalis, however it's spelled, as probably effective.
R. Izard
