06-04-2008, 11:48 PM
Grahm Sumner wrote:
Very good point about the dueling scores-- that should have merited a mention. I agree with you about there relative merits: I don't get why people praise Tiomkin's score for FOTRE-- it seems screechy and formless, with a lot of running up and down scales instead of true melodies. The music too often just doesn't match the action onscreen. When Commodus makes his triumphal entry, for example, you see trumpeters riding along with tubas at their mouths, but don't hear any trumpets or brass instruments at all. Hanz Zimmer's music for Gladiator is much more memorable, melodic and atmospheric. So Gladiator wins on that score (no pun intended), putting it in the overall lead.
Minor roles better in FOTRE? Let's think about that for a minute. In FOTRE, you have James Mason as Timonides, the counselor, who is a nice, calm presence, whose main role is to present exposition and represent the "reasonable and civilized" part of the Roman Empire. You have a couple of generals (one named Victorinus, I forget the other) who are supposed to represent the gruff military types; they don't have much to say or do. You have the blind guy, Cleander, who ends up poisoning Marcus Aurelius, who remains rather puzzling-- why he turns against his beloved master is never really explained. You have an oily Senator, Niger, who (along with Commodus) represents the "decadent, corrupt" side of the Empire; again, his motivations are never really explored, and he comes across as kind of a mustache-twirling villain. Then there's Finley Curry as the revered old senator who gives the speech praising the Pax Romana; he has only one big moment, though, and, again, he's more of an archetype than a real character. Who else? Oh yeah, Antony Quayle's lanista character, who never really does much except back up Commodus, and John Ireland as Baldomar, the Barbarian king, who has a really bad fake beard.
In Gladiator, you have the aforementioned Proximo, world-weary lanista, and Juba, the African gladiator sidekick; you also have Derek Jacoby as Senator Gracchus (why is the good senator always named Gracchus?), who is always convincing and compelling; you have Quintus, the Praetorian Prefect who initially betrays Maximus but later backs him up at a crucial moment. There are a couple of other senators, Gaius and Falco, the latter of whom is sort of an oily counterpart to the Niger character in FOTRE. You have Lucilla's kid Lucius Verus, who doesn't look very Roman with his paige boy haircut, but still adds some youthful energy to the mix, and you have that wild arena announcer in the orange fright wig, who I really dug for some peculiar reason. Oh yeah, you also had that other beefy gladiator type with the Arnold-style accent, and finally Tigrus of Gaul, who doesn't say much but has a pretty bitchin' fight scene with Maximus.
I dunno, I still think the Gladiator characters are a little more colorful and less stock figure-like than the ones in FOTRE, but it's a rather close call, I'll admit.
Quote:I disagree that the minor roles are better in Gladiator so would give that to FOTRE too. Plus an extra bonus that all their historical research was pre Russell Robinson but they had right equipment from the right era too. Guiness IS Marcus Aurelius, he even looks like him. Also as you point out the entry into Rome sequence in both films is interesting to compare. FOTRE wins that hands down, even the crowds cheer better! You missed out the soundtrack music. Zimmer's Gladiator is much easier to listen too than Tiomkin's FOTRE although the march into the forest in the latter is quite impressive.
Very good point about the dueling scores-- that should have merited a mention. I agree with you about there relative merits: I don't get why people praise Tiomkin's score for FOTRE-- it seems screechy and formless, with a lot of running up and down scales instead of true melodies. The music too often just doesn't match the action onscreen. When Commodus makes his triumphal entry, for example, you see trumpeters riding along with tubas at their mouths, but don't hear any trumpets or brass instruments at all. Hanz Zimmer's music for Gladiator is much more memorable, melodic and atmospheric. So Gladiator wins on that score (no pun intended), putting it in the overall lead.
Minor roles better in FOTRE? Let's think about that for a minute. In FOTRE, you have James Mason as Timonides, the counselor, who is a nice, calm presence, whose main role is to present exposition and represent the "reasonable and civilized" part of the Roman Empire. You have a couple of generals (one named Victorinus, I forget the other) who are supposed to represent the gruff military types; they don't have much to say or do. You have the blind guy, Cleander, who ends up poisoning Marcus Aurelius, who remains rather puzzling-- why he turns against his beloved master is never really explained. You have an oily Senator, Niger, who (along with Commodus) represents the "decadent, corrupt" side of the Empire; again, his motivations are never really explored, and he comes across as kind of a mustache-twirling villain. Then there's Finley Curry as the revered old senator who gives the speech praising the Pax Romana; he has only one big moment, though, and, again, he's more of an archetype than a real character. Who else? Oh yeah, Antony Quayle's lanista character, who never really does much except back up Commodus, and John Ireland as Baldomar, the Barbarian king, who has a really bad fake beard.
In Gladiator, you have the aforementioned Proximo, world-weary lanista, and Juba, the African gladiator sidekick; you also have Derek Jacoby as Senator Gracchus (why is the good senator always named Gracchus?), who is always convincing and compelling; you have Quintus, the Praetorian Prefect who initially betrays Maximus but later backs him up at a crucial moment. There are a couple of other senators, Gaius and Falco, the latter of whom is sort of an oily counterpart to the Niger character in FOTRE. You have Lucilla's kid Lucius Verus, who doesn't look very Roman with his paige boy haircut, but still adds some youthful energy to the mix, and you have that wild arena announcer in the orange fright wig, who I really dug for some peculiar reason. Oh yeah, you also had that other beefy gladiator type with the Arnold-style accent, and finally Tigrus of Gaul, who doesn't say much but has a pretty bitchin' fight scene with Maximus.
I dunno, I still think the Gladiator characters are a little more colorful and less stock figure-like than the ones in FOTRE, but it's a rather close call, I'll admit.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA
"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA
"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
