Cavalry name

[Paullus Scipio]

I see that there are many who wish to challenge the view that I posted, as summarised so neatly by Duncan Head, but I don't believe depictions on pots alone suffice to establish that Greek shielded cavalry existed in classical times.
As I pointed out, those depictions can be interpreted any number of ways, and not every horseman represents'cavalry' in the proper sense.What is needed is some supporting evidence, and a major problem is that no literature/history survives earlier than Herodotus ( if indeed there was any)
Without that, I think that the position set out by Duncan, and repeated in my post represents the most reasonable interpretation, based on the evidence we have......until something new comes along! :?

Danno wrote:-

I know there aren't a lot of sources on this, but wouldn't it make more sense for the sporting event to develop from a military one? e.g. the hoplitodromos showing fitness for infantry combat?

...that is certainly possible, and maybe even probable, I would agree.

Pericles/George wrote:-

Perhaps you are right, but this sounds a little vague and speculative to me . Certainly, some scenes may be mythological and a depiction of heroic figures, but this statement could be used against any piece of Greek artistic evidence and is very difficult to prove or disprove without a contemporary written description of the scene. I suppose it depends on whether you think of the pottery as mythological until proven true or true until proven mythological !

..... well, John Boardman is a leading authority on Greek Pottery and has stated that in Athenian pottery at least, 'realistic', as opposed to 'mythological' combat scenes only appear after the Persian wars, prior to which it would seem only Gods and Heroes were fit subjects. I am mindful that the same may not be true of other places ( e.g. Is the Chigi vase a mythological scene? ....or some of the scenes you have posted here?) but most of the surviving pottery from Classical Greece is Athenian ( and most of that from the huge 'midden'/waste dump of broken pottery which still exists AFIK in Athens.....) so if non-mythological scenes are unknown until 500 BC or so there, it might seem likely to be true elsewhere, but I agree with you that without a written description, ( and I see some of the vases in your post show named charcters, but I cannot make them out) vase depictions are open to interpretation, and many things are 'possible' hence the need for some supporting evidence if we are to postulate shielded Greek heavy armoured cavalry

From the pottery that I’ve seen there seems to be no more Boetian style shields than round Aspis-like ones, possibly less.

I would agree with you that Aspis-like shields are the majority, and merely meant that the presence of a 'Boeotian' shield might be a strong indicator that the distant past/mythological times are being depicted ( but that's a whole other debate elsewhere :wink: )
Nor does the fact that a 'mythological' Hero is being depicted preclude contemporary 'real' equipment being shown, of course, but it does tend to cloud the issue....

Possibly, but the horses look like their going fairly fast on the pot image I posted previously and, as you can see, these images posted here show cavalry armed with spears and small shields charging around the pot, with combat on foot on the other side. This pot at least shows combat rather than a parade.

......or it could be interpreted as men riding to battle, then fighting dismounted....as many would do. I would certainly agree that the the presence of drawn weapons on the pots you have posted make a religious parade highly unlikely.But we simply can't be sure what we are looking at, hence the need for some other evidence...

Paul B wrote:-

Somewhere I read an arguement for the "small" sized aspises being artistically reduced- a common feature in such portrayals. Evidently artistically enlarging the aspis in later coins is unlikely to have occured. That said you may be referring to smaller non-aspis shaped shields early on.

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Not every man on horseback is a "cavalryman", and one wonders at the evidential value of these earlier depictions of the 6-5th C BC, when no saddles are shown, ( how do you fight on horseback with a large heavy Aspis without a saddle? )


Well, the tarantines seem to have done this at some date.

If the coins are to be believed, the Tarantines began by using small shields, but presumably having got used to these, began using large ones - which is what you would expect....and you are right, many peoples managed to fight on horseback with large shields, but most used saddles...

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The idea that 'shielded 'Greek cavalry existed but then later somehow 'forgot' how to use shields, is rather unlikely.......


Why so? This occured in the 16th c.

I think your analogy is not really a close one...in Classical/Hellenistic times, shields on horseback were a 'new' idea, and became more popular and spread through the mediterranean world, so to give up shields goes against the trend, but in the 16C, shields were abandoned as a useless encumbrance against massed musket fire.....and 'bulletproof' shields that were yet handy was beyond the technology of the time.....entirely different circumstances.