05-12-2008, 08:07 AM
Antiochus/Steven wrote:-
However, Polybius in his famous description of the Roman Army tells us about the velites lack of formal organisation.(VI.22) He says they were attached to all the companies/maniples, as supernumeraries ( c.f. latin 'velati', lit: supernumeraries who fill up the ranks)
He says "they divide each class into ten companies/maniples except the velites...(who) are divided equally among all the companies/maniples" (VI.24.8 ).
He also tells us that they don't have their own centurions, and the fact that velites operate some way from their officers is implicit in his statement that some wear wolfskins etc as "a mark by which their officers can recognise them and judge if they fight bravely or not" (VI.22.3)
Duncan wrote:-
As Antiochus/Steven remarked, if you start with a false premise you can only end with a false conclusion....
Quote: Livy’s reference the velites were included with the heavy legionaries means the Roman light infantry were now organised into maniples like the heavy infantry.I don't think this is quite correct. Livy tells us only that they became part of the legions (see above) without specifying how they were organised.
However, Polybius in his famous description of the Roman Army tells us about the velites lack of formal organisation.(VI.22) He says they were attached to all the companies/maniples, as supernumeraries ( c.f. latin 'velati', lit: supernumeraries who fill up the ranks)
He says "they divide each class into ten companies/maniples except the velites...(who) are divided equally among all the companies/maniples" (VI.24.8 ).
He also tells us that they don't have their own centurions, and the fact that velites operate some way from their officers is implicit in his statement that some wear wolfskins etc as "a mark by which their officers can recognise them and judge if they fight bravely or not" (VI.22.3)
Duncan wrote:-
Quote:The Rawson theory, as I recall it, is that hasta velitaris orginally meant something like "flying spear", and denoted the pilum, or at least the "thin" socketed type of pilum.I think that this theory is misconceived or flawed in argument....the translation/interpretation of 'Hasta Velitaris' being a case in point. It is clear, even to a non-Latin specialist such as me, that it does not mean 'flying spear' in the sense of 'flying through the air' i.e. 'thrown spear'. Given that she is translating 'velitaris' as derived from 'velox', it means 'swift, rapid, speedy, fleet or quick' ( according to all dictionaries/lexicons I have consulted) hence 'flying' only in the sense of 'swift/speedy' as in "flying column". It appears she has started by confusing an english word which has a dual meaning (flight= to run away quickly and flight = through the air) with its latin equivalent, which does not.
As Antiochus/Steven remarked, if you start with a false premise you can only end with a false conclusion....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
