specifics in Spear fighting combat

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:-

I think you are incorrectly linking the "customary" part of the phrase to the depth of 4. Clearly, to me, he is referring to the individual units "customary", and probably argued over for honor's sake, position from right to left along the battle line. To Xenophon this would have been very important. I don't believe Xenophon is telling us that there is anything coustomary about the 4 rank depth. It is possible that this was a depth used against non-hoplites, there is good reason for this, but it is just as likely that the depth was a facade to make the army look more impressive to his audience.

I would find this type of speculation/hypothesis more persuasive, if you cited some evidence or sources to support the expressed viewpoint. It seems to me that you and Giannis both start from an assumption, and when evidence from an original source is cited, you 'interpret', paraphrase or downright alter the meaning to suit that assumption....surely that is not the right way to go about debating a subject ?
Post evidence/source statements first, and then put your position from there and then you may persuade me to come round to your views.... :wink:

The important point is the depth of ranks in the battle-ready line, which, like the banks of oars on galleys, was a characterization of the strength of the force.

...agreed, to an extent, but my view, largely based on Xenophon admittedly ( but then why not ? He actually was a Hoplite General! ) is that Hoplites in formation spent most of their time in normal/open formation, probably with their servants/shield bearers alongside ( if the Greek drill command, "Fall out the shield bearers!" is anything to go by) and if an author tells you the 'normal' depth, then you automatically know the 'fighting' depth (half that).

And yet Agiselaos countermarches to meet the Thebans at Koronea AFTER combat, presumably in close order.

......that would be a rather incorrect "presumption". Elsewhere (in the 'Constitution', and also described in the Hellenistic manuals) Xenophon tells precisely how this was carried out, in 'open' order, with the rear marker about-turning, then the file leader passes up beside him, leading the file...so clearly, the first move of the 'counter march' was to 'Open Order'. ( try carrying aspides and jostling through in close order! ). Other possible evidence for 'open order' comes from the same battle, though it sounds somewhat strange and is only in later writers, who claim Agesilaos 'open ordered' his ranks to let the Thebans through hock: hock: ....(Frontinus II.6.6 and Polyaenus II.1.19)...I am more inclined to believe Xenophon IV.3.19 Hellenica when he says "some of the Thebans broke through..."

I just see no evidence for doubling.

....on the contrary, the evidence for the use of 'open order' and 'doubling' by Hoplites is overwhelming. To avoid a lengthy post, I will give but a couple of examples.....
The front rank of a Spartan phalanx comprised the officers and leaders, but from it, the 'younger' age-classes could run out to chase off peltasts....only possible from open order....or Xenophon's Cyropaedia again for 'doubling' the file from 8 into 4 "..he gave the order to lead each file in twos. On this the dekarchs led up the files by the side into line. And when he judged it proper, he gave the order for each file to form fours. And thereupon the pentarchs in their turn led up by the side to form fours...." (thereby doubling the ranks into close order and halving the depth)
Or for non-Spartan Hoplites moving from 'close' to 'open' order, consider Cunaxa (Xen Anabasis I.8.20) where against chariots; ".... some, abandoned by their drivers did go through the Greeks. When they saw them coming, they opened ranks..." or again, (I.10.7) this time the Greek peltasts against Tissaphernes cavalry; "However, he did not kill a single man. The Greeks opened their ranks and struck at his men with their swords and flung javelins at them.."
I could go on, but I don't want this post to get too long..... D lol:

your scheme is vulnerable to absurd reductionism: would a 4 deep line envelop your 6? a 3 that 4? etc...

That is the second time you have assailed my point by the rather poor method ofreductio ad absurdum...unfair rhetoric, and in the words of Mr Spock "Illogical, Captain! " :wink: :wink:
You might have done better by pointing out that the Spartans tried "my" enveloping tactics against the deeper Thebans at Leuktra....but didn't 'get it right', or were thwarted by Pelopidas and the sacred Band, and the deeper formation won, against Spartan expectations.... D