spear or pilum?

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert wrote:-

Refresh my memory - what are you arguing that the lancea was? A thrusting or throwing spear?

....neither ! Rather a dual purpose weapon.... see my broad definitions ante...

I think every spear could be used as a thrusting and a throwing weapon, but I think that every spear was designed to one thing primarily. I mean, a pilum was designed as a throwing weapon, even though very fit to thrust with. But (I think) a kontos was designed as a thrusting weapon, even if you could throw it.

You would have to prove at what point the kontos would start changing meaning from a thrusting spear to a throwing spear, if you want ancient authors to use it a translation for a pilum.

...that assumes that it meant 'thrusting spear' in the first place, which can't be right, because it doesn't allow for its 'civilian' meanings - remember its military use began as a nickname - whereas I think it probably originally meant 'any thick shafted pole' ( especially if iron tipped)...see above....the crucial characteristic is a (relatively) thick shaft.

So many weapons have nicknames – but do we even know for sure that the spear was named after the civilian object and not vice versa?
A thick shaft which characterises a thrusting spear design in my opinion.

And if you discount Arrian for the moment ..... are there occurrences where we clearly can see that an author used the word 'kontos' for a 'pilum' without doubt?

....I don't think it fair to apply a 'proof beyond doubt' standard, for reasons stated previously....but as to other examples where 'kontos' most likely means pilum/spiculum/heavy throwing weapon, you have fortunately supplied several examples! ( see ante)
Lucian; usage of 'kontophroi' and 'longcophoroi' armed infantry guards seems identical to Arrian's........
Julius Africanus;'kontoi' in 217 AD, when pila were a major weapon of legionaries ( see e.g. Bishop and Coulston; Roman Military equipment p.122-123) along with lancea
Vegetius; barbarian infantry carrying 'kontoi' and 'kontoi' being thrown..........

I agree that ‘without doubt’ can be difficult, but we are looking for a specific description of the weapon (like Polybius describes (I think I recall) of the pilum how wooden shaft and iron shank are of equal length), that sort of thing.

Lucian; usage of 'kontophroi' and 'lonchophoroi' armed infantry guards seems identical to Arrian's........

Seems, because if we can’t tell with spear Arrian meant, we won’t be able to tell what Lucian meant, either. Similarly, if Arrian meant a hasta-thrusting spear, Lucian could have meant that, too.

Julius Africanus;'kontoi' in 217 AD, when pila were a major weapon of legionaries (see e.g. Bishop and Coulston; Roman Military equipment p.122-123) along with lancea

Paul, are you now going to tell me that we ‘must’ see the legionary infantry as armed with first and foremost a pilum? I sure hope not. :wink:
Nothing tells us that the ‘kontoi’ of Julius Africanus were pila, only that they were too short for his taste in defence against enemy cavalry. He uses the words ‘akontia’ (which are thrown) and ’kontoi’ (which apparently are not thrown), and uses for both the synonym ‘dorata’.

Vegetius; barbarian infantry carrying 'kontoi' and 'kontoi' being thrown..........

Nothing wrong with a long thrusting spear being thrown, is there? One of the two occasions is a contus being thrown down from a siege tower – which would be true for anything thrown that way, from a brick to a cow (Fetchez la vache!).
But by itself it means nothing. Strabo (10.1.12) claims that a kontos can be thrown, but he even claims that a sarissa can be thrown – possible, but I would not recommend it as a primary method of defence!

More important is that Vegetius tells us that the spiculum is the pilum of his day, thereby telling us also that his contus is not a synonym for a pilum.