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spear or pilum?
#25
O.K. - let us continue with our little digression on the subject of 'weapon types' and the way in which later writers used ( or, as is so often the case mis-used terminology. Later writers are indeed, as you have pointed out, Robert, something of a mine-field - not least because of their predilection and fondness for wanting to use 'archaic' terms borrowed from 'ancient' and revered literature.........

Robert wrote:-
Quote: Synonyms are used for varying weapons, and clearly the names of weapons over time become used for entirely different weapons.
....see above explanation - the desire to use 'ancient' terminology is strong in later writers....
Quote:Livy called the ‘sarissa’ a ‘praelonga hasta’ (Ab Urbe Condita XXXII.17.13, XXXIII.8.12, XXXVI.18.7, XXXVII.42.4, XLIV.41.7). he clearly uses ‘hasta’ for a very long thrusting spear
......and that is exactly right. If we take Hasta as the single handed 7-8ft thrusting spear, then the sarissa(Macedonian pike) is indeed " a very long thrusting spear" - no confusion or problem here !
Hasta at this time also has a generic meaning of 'spear/shafted weapon', similar to English - thus Polybius refers to hasta velitaris lit; 'spear or shafted weapon of the velites' to mean the 'mini pila/javelin' with which they were equipped (carrying seven in total)
Quote:Curtius Rufus called the ‘sarissa’ a ‘hasta’ (Historiae Alexandri Magni III.2.13, IX.7.19. Same as Livy then, he has a long thrusting spear in mind.
....quite right - using generic Hasta/spear as a translation, a sarissa is a type of spear - a very long one, for which the Romans had no word in latin because they didn't use this Macedonian weapon. Livy and Curtius are also writing for audiences several hundred years after Macedonian sarissas have vanished, hence their need to explain to audiences in words they would understand just what it is.
Quote:Flavius Josephus equipped regular Roman infantry with a unique ‘xyston’ (Bella Judaica III.95), which is taken as meaning a pilum, but the word is also synonym for ‘dory’, which is the long thrusting spear of Hoplite warfare.
......this is not quite correct and we must back-pedal a little.Xyston is originally the generic term for a spear-shaft , but later is specifically the 8-12 ft (2.4-3.6 m) cavalry lance, carried by Alexander and the Companion cavalry. Josephus was a jewish historian in the first century, trying to write a history of the revolt for Romans, in Greek, which he all too obviously, from his writings, did not speak well - as all his translators acknowledge. Hardly surprising that he used one of many greek words for 'spear' ( and be it noted, there was no proper greek word for pila because this was not a greek weapon, just as sarissa was not a Roman one). He also incorrectly calls the Legionary shield 'Aspis(round circular Hoplite shield)' when talking of the legionary General's bodyguard,and may mean a roman circular shield (parma) ( longche/lancea and Aspis armed)but correctly calls the ordinary legionary shield and the cavalry shield 'thureos'( greek equivalent of scutum/oval shield/'long' shield), and refers to legionaries as 'hoplites' at times. He calls the Roman cavalry lance a 'kontos' ( lit: punting pole used in shallow rivers, or 'bargepole'), which was greek slang for a xyston !!)
All in all, writing in a foreign language about technical military terms, we can forgive Josephus' occasional errors - if indeed they are so (see below), I think!
Quote:Arrian called his legionaries ‘kontophoroi’ and lonchophoroi’, without clearly describing what he meant, although his description of battle tactics points to infantry with thrusting spears, supported by lighter infantry with throwing spears. The ‘kontus’ is then a long thrusting spear, probably, but mostly used in a cavalry context, as a two-handed spear with a length between 2.5 and 4 metres. Also, Arrian’s kontos is used several times during the battle sequence, which is impossible if throwing had been meant (Arrian, Acies 16-17, 26).
.........Again, this is not quite correct.
Flavius Arrianus Xenophon, to give him his full name, was of Greek descent and grew up in Bythinia, and eventually rose to be Consul under Hadrian and in his "Contra Alani", we have preserved a genuine set of Roman battle dispositions, written by the commander.The kontos described here appears to be the pilum, the classic heavy javelin of the legionary heavy infantry with its bendable iron shank,(Arrian tells us this un-mistakeably) rather than the two handed 12 ft cavalry spear used by some heavy cavalry contarii. A generally applied Greek vocabulary for translation of Latin terminology does not seem to have been adopted despite centuries of contact with the Roman army. The word hyssos was used by several Greek authors, most notably Polybius, as the Greek term for pilum, while Flavius Josephus employed the word xyston.Interestingly, Arrian is writing only thirty or forty years after Josephus, and he uses kontos( the slang for xyston) so in essence the same term.Perhaps Josephus is accurately using a contemporary greek term for pilum correctly after all. The use of the pilum as a stabbing weapon rather than a javelin is not unique: Caesar’s legionaries had done the same during the siege of Alesia according to the De bello Gallico and it occurs on other occasions too.
The 'lonchophoroi' are clearly lancea armed legionaries ( though it should be noted that Arrian has some skirmishers (gk: Psiloi) armed with lancea too.
[digression; Josephus has legionary guards armed with lancea,Arrian a proportion of the legionaries lancea armed, as does the Marcus Aurelius column and later Lanciarii are a recognised heavy infantry type, so it appears that from the late 1st C AD, the pilum was gradually partly replaced by the more generalised lancea in the legions.]
No confusion here then - kontophoroi are pila armed and longchophoroi are lancea armed !!
[quote]Herodian referred to the Roman army in the Parthian War of Caracalla (216-218 AD) as “an infantry force which was invincible in close-quarter fighting with spearsâ€
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Messages In This Thread
spear or pilum? - by vergilius - 01-16-2008, 12:59 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. Demetrius - 01-16-2008, 04:59 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Jasper Oorthuys - 01-16-2008, 06:12 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-16-2008, 06:13 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by arklore70 - 01-16-2008, 06:17 PM
Javelins? - by Marcus Julius - 01-17-2008, 04:40 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. Demetrius - 01-17-2008, 04:59 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Marcus Julius - 01-17-2008, 05:35 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by vergilius - 01-17-2008, 07:54 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by vergilius - 01-17-2008, 10:48 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Matthew Amt - 01-17-2008, 03:17 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-17-2008, 04:03 PM
Spear or Pila - by Paullus Scipio - 01-18-2008, 03:52 AM
Re: Spear or Pila - by Robert Vermaat - 01-18-2008, 07:36 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Matthew Amt - 01-18-2008, 05:43 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Crispvs - 01-18-2008, 06:16 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by vergilius - 01-21-2008, 02:42 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Nerva - 01-21-2008, 04:34 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 01-21-2008, 06:17 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-21-2008, 06:43 PM
Re: Spear or Pila - by D B Campbell - 01-21-2008, 07:55 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. Demetrius - 01-21-2008, 07:59 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-21-2008, 08:02 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. Demetrius - 01-21-2008, 08:18 PM
Pilum or Spear? - weapon types - by Paullus Scipio - 01-22-2008, 06:51 AM
Spear or Pilum? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-22-2008, 07:29 AM
Livy - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 11:01 AM
Curtius Rufus - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 11:02 AM
Vegetius - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 11:03 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Crispvs - 01-22-2008, 01:08 PM
Arrian - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 01:13 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 01:16 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 01-22-2008, 01:35 PM
Flavius Josephus - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 01:35 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 01:40 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 01-22-2008, 01:52 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2008, 03:17 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 01-22-2008, 03:50 PM
Re: Arrian - by D B Campbell - 01-22-2008, 09:05 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-22-2008, 09:10 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-23-2008, 07:54 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-23-2008, 07:58 AM
Spear or pilum? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Re: Spear or pilum? - by D B Campbell - 01-23-2008, 11:50 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-23-2008, 04:00 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Senovara - 01-23-2008, 06:38 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 01-23-2008, 08:43 PM
Spear or Pilum? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-24-2008, 04:09 AM
Re: Spear or Pilum? - by D B Campbell - 01-24-2008, 03:03 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Senovara - 01-24-2008, 06:54 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 01-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Spear or Pilum - by Paullus Scipio - 01-25-2008, 07:22 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by D B Campbell - 01-25-2008, 11:43 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Paulus Claudius Damianus - 01-25-2008, 12:34 PM
Spear or Pila? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-25-2008, 05:28 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 01-25-2008, 06:03 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by maarten - 01-25-2008, 08:15 PM
Spear or Pila ? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-25-2008, 11:12 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 01-26-2008, 12:41 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by M. Demetrius - 01-26-2008, 03:11 PM
Re: Spear or Pilum - by D B Campbell - 01-26-2008, 07:34 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 01-27-2008, 12:16 PM
Spear or Pilum? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-28-2008, 07:26 AM
Re: Spear or Pilum - by Robert Vermaat - 01-31-2008, 06:39 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-31-2008, 06:45 PM
Spear or pila? - by Paullus Scipio - 01-31-2008, 08:52 PM
Re: Spear or pila? - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2008, 12:19 AM
Spear or Pilum? - by Paullus Scipio - 02-01-2008, 01:41 AM
Re: Spear or Pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2008, 09:02 AM
Spear or Pila? - by Paullus Scipio - 02-04-2008, 03:26 AM
Re: Spear or Pila? - by Robert Vermaat - 02-04-2008, 09:48 AM
Spear or Pilum? - by Paullus Scipio - 02-15-2008, 07:06 AM
Re: Spear or Pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2008, 04:42 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert Vermaat - 03-09-2008, 08:11 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 04-12-2008, 07:22 PM
Spear and Pilum - by Paullus Scipio - 04-13-2008, 01:39 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 04-13-2008, 12:36 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by cjasper_fernandez07 - 04-13-2008, 12:55 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by PMBardunias - 04-13-2008, 02:21 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Robert - 04-13-2008, 03:12 PM
Re: spear or pilum? - by Magnus - 04-14-2008, 06:14 AM
Re: spear or pilum? - by PMBardunias - 04-14-2008, 02:31 PM

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